View Poll Results: God Does Not Exist: Logical? Scientific?

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  • Logical but not scientific.

    5 10.42%
  • Scientific but not logical.

    0 0%
  • Logical and scientific.

    11 22.92%
  • Neither logical or scientific.

    32 66.67%
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Thread: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

  1. #71
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    Re: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    Look.. Nietzsche said God is dead and that is that. Forget about it. We do not need proof or anything, right?

    When you can prove that God does exist? Get back to me.. Til then? Logic tells you that he does not exist. That is logic. The End.
    Unfortunately nobody has managed to find God's body yet, so billions continue to cling to the hope that he is still alive since his death cannot be proven.
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    Re: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Sure I was.

    Science is about learning about what we do not currently understand.
    The supernatural cannot be explained by natural law, which is what Science is. Science does not deal in the supernatural. YOUR use of supernatural is incorrect.
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  3. #73
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    Re: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    So as I said before:
    If, as you say, God is a hypothesis of the structure of the universe rather than a being in the universe, then there must be a way to empirically test this hypothesis. So let's first clarify what exactly we're talking about here: What would the existence of God tell us about the structure of the universe, that could not possibly be true without a God?
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    Re: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    The examples are not comparable.

    One is a plausible explanation for the origin of the universe, whereas the other is a random and nonsensical claim.
    What version of god are you talking about, and how is it a plausible explanation? And what makes the garage dragon a random and nonsensical claim? If I tell you that not only do I have a dragon living in my garage, but that he also created the universe, does my claim become MORE or LESS plausible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal
    The concept of God fits logically into a theory or model of the universe. It is possible and plausible. But garage-dragons!? What theory or model do they fit into? What line of reasoning would necessitate a dragon in one's garage? Sure, it's possible, but is it really plausible!?
    I don't see why it's any less plausible...just because society conditions people to accept one claim and not the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal
    And if they really are logically equivalent then where are all the people who think there's a dragon in their garage? Surely, if billions of people can "delude" themselves into believing in God, then a substantial amount of people out there should also be deluding themselves into believing there's a dragon in their garage. Why don't they?
    I think the purpose of Sagan's example was to pick something that people DON'T commonly delude themselves into believing. But garage dragons aside, there ARE many other examples of widespread delusions that have nothing to do with religion: Ghosts, UFOs, astrology, homeopathy, magic, prophecies, etc.
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    Re: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    What version of god are you talking about, and how is it a plausible explanation? And what makes the garage dragon a random and nonsensical claim? If I tell you that not only do I have a dragon living in my garage, but that he also created the universe, does my claim become MORE or LESS plausible?



    I don't see why it's any less plausible...just because society conditions people to accept one claim and not the other.



    I think the purpose of Sagan's example was to pick something that people DON'T commonly delude themselves into believing. But garage dragons aside, there ARE many other examples of widespread delusions that have nothing to do with religion: Ghosts, UFOs, astrology, homeopathy, magic, prophecies, etc.
    But none of those things have left behind a complex and well ordered creation.
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    Re: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    What version of god are you talking about...
    An unmoved mover or first cause which manifests itself as an ineffable force that permeates and unifies the entire universe; sensed in the remotest peripheries of the human consciousness.

    ...and how is it a plausible explanation?
    Seems like it's a 50/50 probability. Either God exists or It doesn't. There's nothing to suggest that it's implausible, is there?

    And what makes the garage dragon a random and nonsensical claim?
    Because I can't think of a single model or theory or quandary which would logically point to the existence of an invisible garage-dragon.

    If I tell you that not only do I have a dragon living in my garage, but that he also created the universe, does my claim become MORE or LESS plausible?
    How did you come to this conclusion? What's the reasoning? What model or theory or quandary lead you to conclude that God is in your garage and that's he's an invisible dragon?

    Can you honestly not see the difference?

    I think the purpose of Sagan's example was to pick something that people DON'T commonly delude themselves into believing. But garage dragons aside, there ARE many other examples of widespread delusions that have nothing to do with religion: Ghosts, UFOs, astrology, homeopathy, magic, prophecies, etc.
    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

  7. #77
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    Re: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If, as you say, God is a hypothesis of the structure of the universe rather than a being in the universe, then there must be a way to empirically test this hypothesis.
    Why does there have to be?

    So let's first clarify what exactly we're talking about here: What would the existence of God tell us about the structure of the universe, that could not possibly be true without a God?
    Depends on which version of God you believe in. But in most cases the difference would be more spiritual than physical, and thus can't really be tested.

  8. #78
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    Re: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

    God is like a Ray-o-vac Battery--a life force--not a guy in a G-string, and flowing beard.
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    Re: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    An unmoved mover or first cause which manifests itself as an ineffable force that permeates and unifies the entire universe; sensed in the remotest peripheries of the human consciousness.
    If that's your definition of God, one could say that God exists without even the remotest belief in anything non-scientific. The Big Bang could be the first cause, which permeates the entire universe in the form of microwave background radiation and unifies the entire universe in the form of four fundamental forces. And some sort of spiritual experience is obviously sensed in the remotest peripheries of human consciousness, as scientists have identified which regions of the brain are active during religious experiences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal
    Seems like it's a 50/50 probability. Either God exists or It doesn't. There's nothing to suggest that it's implausible, is there?
    Just because there are two options doesn't mean it's a 50/50 probability. Either a meteor will wipe out civilization in the next ten minutes, or it won't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal
    Because I can't think of a single model or theory or quandary which would logically point to the existence of an invisible garage-dragon.
    Can you give me an example of something that would logically point to the existence of a god? (Might wanna revise your definition of god first so that we're actually talking about something non-scientific.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal
    How did you come to this conclusion? What's the reasoning? What model or theory or quandary lead you to conclude that God is in your garage and that's he's an invisible dragon?

    Can you honestly not see the difference?
    No. What model or theory or quandary led someone else to conclude that God lives in the sky or mountains or outside the universe, and that he's an invisible man (or whatever other kind of entity their religion tells them).
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-02-10 at 12:01 AM.
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    Re: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

    "God does not exist" is an opinion (no evidence given) yet is being stated without such qualification and is being asserted as a fact. Therefore it is illogical.

    "In my opinion God does/does not exist" would be a logical statement, as there is no way to completely disprove the statement.
    Last edited by MC.no.spin; 01-02-10 at 12:13 AM.
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