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Is it time to profile on airline flights?

Is it time to profile on airline flights?


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That don't even make any sense, dude.

You do realize that German subs never attacked the mainland United States?

Because I am brown skinned and my wife looks Asian, we get pulled aside every ****ing time we travel by air.

I am a ****ing veteran!

**** that and any attempt at profiling.

God damn cowards let this **** happen.
 
I was listening to some of the witnesses on CNN who boarded the plane with the terrorist. They said he was accompanied by a middle-aged, well dressed, Indian man. They also said the airport staff tried to stop the terrorist from getting on board the plane because he didn't have a passport, but the middle-aged guy talked the staff into letting him on.


Instead of trying to get people to jump onto Fox News' "profile them!" bandwagon, why aren't we asking real questions like... Who was the middle-aged Indian man, and why did the staff let him on board without the passport?
 
I am and old guy and have lived a good life so I am not afraid to die but I want to see my children and grandchildren live a long and happy life.....I dson't believe the lefties speaking in this thread represent the thinking of the silent majority in this country.........I am so happy for that......I do believe the war on terror will be long and drawn out, maybe even a hundred years and for the lefties that speak here who believe here is not even a war on terror happening is what is insane.....I think those of us who believe we are in the biggest danger of our lives will fight to the end and even protect our left wing friends in spite of themselves......The radical muslims want us to convert to their religeous beliefs or die.....

Some of you lefties have called me a coward......I am no coward I have lived a great life and died tommorrow I would have no regrets........
 
I was listening to some of the witnesses on CNN who boarded the plane with the terrorist. They said he was accompanied by a middle-aged, well dressed, Indian man. They also said the airport staff tried to stop the terrorist from getting on board the plane because he didn't have a passport, but the middle-aged guy talked the staff into letting him on.


Instead of trying to get people to jump onto Fox News' "profile them!" bandwagon, why aren't we asking real questions like... Who was the middle-aged Indian man, and why did the staff let him on board without the passport?

Those "witnesses" are either lying or they're extremely confused. The Dutch government has officially confirmed that the guy did hold a valid Nigerian passport and a valid US visa. The things some people will do to get on TV. :roll:

CTV News | No red flags on terror suspect: Dutch officials

There was nothing suspicious about a man alleged to have carried an explosive device onto a Detroit-bound flight in Amsterdam on Christmas Day, the Dutch government said Wednesday.

Interior Minister Guusje Ter Horst spoke to reporters as her government released the results of its investigation into how 23-year-old Nigerian Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab boarded Northwest Airlines Flight 253 while allegedly having an explosive device strapped to his leg and despite his being on a terror watch list.

Abdulmutallab was carrying a valid Nigerian passport and a valid U.S. travel visa and did not appear on any Dutch lists of terror suspects.
 
I am and old guy and have lived a good life so I am not afraid to die but I want to see my children and grandchildren live a long and happy life.....

You have been alive longer than me, and I'm sure you know that one thing leads to another in some cases. Like I said in a previous post... The government already has the power to tape phone lines with a warrant, hold prisoners without an attorney, and torture. Now you want us to start profiling. We can't keep expanding the government's powers every time something like this happens.

The radical muslims want us to convert to their religeous beliefs or die.....

...and they would be happy if we lived in a fascist police state where the rule of law doesn't mean anything.

Some of you lefties have called me a coward......I am no coward I have lived a great life and died tommorrow I would have no regrets........

I don't think you are a coward. You are standing up for what you believe in and you mean well for our security, but I think you are wrong with this thread. I personally disagree with you on profiling.
 
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Those "witnesses" are either lying or they're extremely confused. The Dutch government has officially confirmed that the guy did hold a valid Nigerian passport and a valid US visa. The things some people will do to get on TV. :roll:

CTV News | No red flags on terror suspect: Dutch officials

Thanks for the link. I didn't expect those people to be fame hungry after a situation like this but I forgot it's too common. :shock:
 
I am and old guy and have lived a good life so I am not afraid to die but I want to see my children and grandchildren live a long and happy life.....I dson't believe the lefties speaking in this thread represent the thinking of the silent majority in this country.........I am so happy for that......I do believe the war on terror will be long and drawn out, maybe even a hundred years and for the lefties that speak here who believe here is not even a war on terror happening is what is insane.....I think those of us who believe we are in the biggest danger of our lives will fight to the end and even protect our left wing friends in spite of themselves......The radical muslims want us to convert to their religeous beliefs or die.....

And you would stomp all over the Constitution to turn us into a police state were the government can detain you based on your race. "So sorry massa, we just wants to fly on da plane boss."

Some of you lefties have called me a coward......I am no coward I have lived a great life and died tommorrow I would have no regrets........

Well if the shoe fits. It is idiots who hold to that "trample our rights for safety" crap that has caused this bull**** in the first place.

No thanks. I will take freedom over fear.
 
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Moderator's Warning:
I know that IT has already dropped a warning, but I am going to accentuate it. This thread is the perfect example of baiting and personal attacks. All the "lefty" and "conservative" crap stops now... as do the attacks on anyone. ANYONE does it and they will get thread banned and perhaps more.
 
Personally I do not see how profiling based on race would be effictive. Muslim terrorist are arab, african, far east asian, caucasion etc. Thats why I think as a part of a broader security plan religious profiling must be used. It only makes sense. The question is how do know someones religion. In Israel all passengers have a background check. Muslims receive special scrutiny from El Al security. And as a result El Al is the worlds most secure airline. We could do this as well.
 
We have an unbelievably higher number of people likely flying through our airports than Israel does on any given day.

Who do you propose will be running those background checks?
Who do you propose will be doing the profile questioning?
How do you propose to pay for the background checks, the training, and the likely increased personnel needed?
How would you deal with the hit on the economy and on business when airport travel becomes even more difficult and even more time consuming?
 
Profiling cannot be so simple - it must take into account multiple levels. Geographical location, type of flight, and yes the persons name, and country of origin. That alone could be enough to warrant a second look or a pat down in some circumstances. Critics will simply say Al Qaeda will then recruit European or American's and have them carry out terrorist acts. That may also be correct - but what this last act specifically identified was that we, the U.S., are still not talking to each other, not taking security seriously, and are not adding together the clues. Unless this happens and happens fast - we're going to have another 9-11 that may even be worse. We cannot learn our lessons and apply them while being politically sensitive and unwilling to possibly - just possibly hurt feelings.
 
Police officers "profile" all the time based upon distinguishing characteristics and behaviors. This isn't racism, it's good police work. It's ridiculous that some kind of misguided political correctness is keeping us from air safety.

Frankly, there should be an enhanced system whereby frequent fliers can provide additional information in advance and skip the b.s. hassles, and infrequent fliers get extra scrutiny.
 
Police officers "profile" all the time based upon distinguishing characteristics and behaviors. This isn't racism, it's good police work. It's ridiculous that some kind of misguided political correctness is keeping us from air safety.

Again, I see no one arguing against that directly. PROFILING is normal.

However

To my knowledge broadscale religious/racial profiling by officers is not allowed. IE, in a city where its known blacks perform the most robberies you don't just pull over any black person you see to check if they have stuff on them to rob a store. IE, in a city where christians are known to have been vandelizing store fronts of places they disagree with you can't just camp out in front of a church and interrogate everyone there or give full body searches to anyone wearing a cross.

Again, I doubt if you said "If ALL things are equal, if both people have equal amount of traditioanal warning signs, and one is an 80 year old woman and one is a 30 year old male named Muhammed with a koran in his pack" that people would have issue if you paid a bit more attention to Muhammed. However, what people have issue is if it was that both the 80 year old woman and the 30 year old guy named muhammed and both don't have any warning signs and you go ahead and wave the 80 year old through and then decide to do a cavity search on Muhammed for no other reason than because he's muslim like some have suggested.

Profiling, almost singularly on race/religion or to such a large degree on those is not efficient, is not effective, and is NOT used by law enforcement in broad scale ways. Its used at most as a small part of a much larger profile, OR used in part during a specific incident when a specific violation is known in a generalized location, IE, a report coming over the speaker saying that a 5'8" hispanic individual in blue jeans and a red cap just robbed a store within a block from you. At that point, yes, focusing only on Hispanics would make senes because you KNOW a crime was committed, you KNOW it was by a hispanic person, and you KNOW its by a hispanic person in your relative close vicinity. That's entirely different than just general racial profiling when you know SOME hispanics at SOME point at SOME place are more likely to rob a store, so you may as well question all of them you see all the time because they might just be guilty.
 
Police officers "profile" all the time based upon distinguishing characteristics and behaviors. This isn't racism, it's good police work. It's ridiculous that some kind of misguided political correctness is keeping us from air safety.

Huge difference from picking out a thug on the street and a sophisticated TRAINED terrorist.

Considering the amount of mistakes and set ups the police cause, do you really want this done on a huge scale? We can't even get it right on a small scale.

Frankly, there should be an enhanced system whereby frequent fliers can provide additional information in advance and skip the b.s. hassles, and infrequent fliers get extra scrutiny.

I will again take freedom over fear.
 
Police officers "profile" all the time based upon distinguishing characteristics and behaviors. This isn't racism, it's good police work. It's ridiculous that some kind of misguided political correctness is keeping us from air safety.

Frankly, there should be an enhanced system whereby frequent fliers can provide additional information in advance and skip the b.s. hassles, and infrequent fliers get extra scrutiny.

No...most often its called police acting like rogue cops. Its a sad day in America where cops who detain people without probable cause based on their skin color or the neighborhood they live in, pat them down, search them without probable cause or a warrant.....and its called "good police work".

Its also not about "PC", its about upholding our Constitution and not allowing the government to treat people differently based on the color of their skin or their ethnicity.
As for your second point, why not just allow those who can afford to fly first class the ability to skip the b.s. hassles...essentially what you are advocating is a class based system where those who can afford to fly and travel frequently are able to bypass the hassle, where people who can't afford to travel a lot have to deal with what you rightly call "B.S.".

God help us as a country if we ever allow the government the power to treat people of different classes/races/ethnicities more differently than they already do.
Frankly....I'm surprised that so many people are willing to hand over our Constitutional guarantees.
 
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No...most often its called police acting like rogue cops. Its a sad day in America where cops who detain people without probable cause based on their skin color or the neighborhood they live in, pat them down, search them without probable cause or a warrant.....and its called "good police work".

Its also not about "PC", its about upholding our Constitution and not allowing the government to treat people differently based on the color of their skin or their ethnicity.
As for your second point, why not just allow those who can afford to fly first class the ability to skip the b.s. hassles...essentially what you are advocating is a class based system where those who can afford to fly and travel frequently are able to bypass the hassle, where people who can't afford to travel a lot have to deal with what you rightly call "B.S.".

God help us as a country if we ever allow the government the power to treat people of different classes/races/ethnicities more differently than they already do.
Frankly....I'm surprised that so many people are willing to hand over our Constitutional guarantees.

Doesn't it just blow your mind that the people that rant and rave about how important the Constitution is are also the first to want to stomp all over it?
 
Where in the constitution does it identify "thou shall not profile"?
 
That don't even make any sense, dude.

You do realize that German subs never attacked the mainland United States?

Duquesne Spy Ring, Operation Elster, Operation Pastrious


True the U-Boats never literally attacked the mainland, but that does not mean they weren't dangerous to Americans. Especially off the East-Coast.
 
No...most often its called police acting like rogue cops. Its a sad day in America where cops who detain people without probable cause based on their skin color or the neighborhood they live in, pat them down, search them without probable cause or a warrant.....and its called "good police work".

Its also not about "PC", its about upholding our Constitution and not allowing the government to treat people differently based on the color of their skin or their ethnicity.
As for your second point, why not just allow those who can afford to fly first class the ability to skip the b.s. hassles...essentially what you are advocating is a class based system where those who can afford to fly and travel frequently are able to bypass the hassle, where people who can't afford to travel a lot have to deal with what you rightly call "B.S.".

God help us as a country if we ever allow the government the power to treat people of different classes/races/ethnicities more differently than they already do.
Frankly....I'm surprised that so many people are willing to hand over our Constitutional guarantees.

The fact that I agree with disnydude 100% says allot.

I don't agree with him on much of anything.
 
Police officers "profile" all the time based upon distinguishing characteristics and behaviors. This isn't racism, it's good police work. It's ridiculous that some kind of misguided political correctness is keeping us from air safety.

Profiling as in trying to understand the actions someone took by matching them to common known traits and such isn't necessarily bad. Though it would be impractical for something like our large international airports. But I think people are talking about racial/religious profiling. Which becomes something else. I don't think we'd be safer with racial/religious profiling. Hell, I don't think we're safer because of the TSA, the war on terror, or Homeland Security. Another government action isn't going to make us more "safe".

Frankly, there should be an enhanced system whereby frequent fliers can provide additional information in advance and skip the b.s. hassles, and infrequent fliers get extra scrutiny.

There was at one time. Some company which did background checks/biometric databasing. It went away cause not enough people were willing to pay for it. And I think a lot had a problem with the type of information the company kept.
 
Where in the constitution does it identify "thou shall not profile"?

The Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees the right to be safe from unreasonable search and seizure without probable cause. Since the majority of people of all races are law-abiding citizens, merely being of a race which a police officer believes to be more likely to commit a crime than another is not probable cause. In addition, the Fourteenth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution requires that all citizens be treated equally under the law. It has been argued that this makes it unconstitutional for a representative of the government to make decisions based on race. This view has been upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court in Batson v. Kentucky and several other cases
 
The Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees the right to be safe from unreasonable search and seizure without probable cause. Since the majority of people of all races are law-abiding citizens, merely being of a race which a police officer believes to be more likely to commit a crime than another is not probable cause. In addition, the Fourteenth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution requires that all citizens be treated equally under the law. It has been argued that this makes it unconstitutional for a representative of the government to make decisions based on race. This view has been upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court in Batson v. Kentucky and several other cases

Assigning a profile criteria is a probable cause... therefore the 4th wouldn't apply.

The 14th wouldn't apply because race would not be a criteria.

A fairly elementary and easy method of assigning criteria to a profile. However, since you will not answer the question, I will have to answer it for you: The Constitution does not protect one from being profiled - specifically it does not address it. Trying to apply the constitution to irrelevance is up to lawyers and of course, once could argue that breathing air could be un-constitutional (though, that wouldn't be a very successful argument). My point is - it's easy to assign a criteria that would be difficult at best to apply a breach of the Constitution. The reason it has not been done is because of PC bull****. We don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, which is nonsense and I for one refuse to apologize for putting people's lives ahead of their feelings. Get over it.
 
Where in the constitution does it identify "thou shall not profile"?

Its a little something called "due process" and "equal protection"....also there is something in there called the 4th Amendment. I'm sure you'll understand when you read it.
 
Assigning a profile criteria is a probable cause... therefore the 4th wouldn't apply.

Can you say "circular reasoning".

A "profile criteria" that runs afoul of the Constitution is unconstitutional.
 
Assigning a profile criteria is a probable cause... therefore the 4th wouldn't apply.

The 14th wouldn't apply because race would not be a criteria.

A fairly elementary and easy method of assigning criteria to a profile. However, since you will not answer the question, I will have to answer it for you: The Constitution does not protect one from being profiled - specifically it does not address it. Trying to apply the constitution to irrelevance is up to lawyers and of course, once could argue that breathing air could be un-constitutional (though, that wouldn't be a very successful argument). My point is - it's easy to assign a criteria that would be difficult at best to apply a breach of the Constitution. The reason it has not been done is because of PC bull****. We don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, which is nonsense and I for one refuse to apologize for putting people's lives ahead of their feelings. Get over it.

Your frankly incorrect, at least in regards to the TYPE of profiling that is oft being proposed here.

You're trying to use the general term profiling and prove that singe the general use of profiling isn't unconstitutional then ALL types of profiling isn't unconstitutional, which is circular and poor logic.

Making a law that affects religions is not necessarily unconstitional. IE, saying that ALL religions can have their buildings tax exempt isn't unconstitutional. However, if you just said "The Catholic Church can be tax exempt" and that was it, that WOULD be unconstitutional. The fact that the broad application of that standard isn't doesn't make the narrow application okay.

Profiling, as a broad term.....IE in general you're more likely to look for males then females, nervous people over calm people, people with bulky clothing over tight fitting, those that are of the 20-30 year old range rather than older or younger, one way ticket over two way ticket, cash over credit middle eastern descent over none middle eastern, muslim over non-muslim, etc....where all the various criteria are used without extremely over valuing one or the other or focusing singularly on just the racial/religious ones is far FAR different than many peoples suggstions that EVERY muslim or arabic looking person should automatically, regardless of any other signs, be subject to extensive additional screening with some even advocating cavity searches for simply appearing to be a religion.

The former I spoke of isn't necessarily unconstitutional, each is making up a much larger profile and you're not segregating a portion of the population based on one fact. The latter is pure religious or ethnic singling out in an unreasonable and unnecessary way which would be a violation of the 4th and 14th.

Less than 1% of the muslim citizens in this country have committed any sort of terrorist activity. It is therefore an unreasonable search and siezure to exppose the other 99% to extensive and potentially degrading searches for no other reason than the way their skin color looks or their name.
 
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