View Poll Results: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

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Thread: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

  1. #411
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    Re: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

    I assume they're following the basic tenets of Behavioral Science and Criminal Profiling.

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    Re: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    Al Qaeda could easily find whites that wish to lash out at society by causing devastation. Do you think Al Qaeda will only ally with people that are under the impression their sacrifice is for Allah?
    Then why havent done so if its that simple and easy? Please explain

    As I said in my previous post that is easier said than done. It is also why profiling race religion is only one aspect of profiling as is profiling itself is just one of many tools that needs to be used to counter threats.

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    Re: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtRock View Post
    How then does El Al airlines security in Israel profile muslims? They seem to do an excellent job of it.
    El-Al doesn't really profile according to religion. They profile according to behavior and I'm pretty sure their intelligence agencies are way more careful about making sure that the information is up to date than any other country's. You have to remember that Israel's enemies are not all muslims. This is one country with a lot of enemies everywhere. As far as I know, they treat everyone as a potential threat, including Jews, and don't allow you on board their flights until they are satisfied that you're not a threat, no matter what religion or ethnicity you are.
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    Re: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

    No, because then the terrorists will know we're doing it, so they'll disguise themselves as old white ladies or stuff bombs in their purses or whatever. Duh.

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    Re: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    El-Al doesn't really profile according to religion. They profile according to behavior and I'm pretty sure their intelligence agencies are way more careful about making sure that the information is up to date than any other country's. You have to remember that Israel's enemies are not all muslims. This is one country with a lot of enemies everywhere. As far as I know, they treat everyone as a potential threat, including Jews, and don't allow you on board their flights until they are satisfied that you're not a threat, no matter what religion or ethnicity you are.
    They most certainly do profile religion and race too but those are not the only factors profiled nor is profiling the only tool used for security. El Als security measures which include profiling rate it the most secure Airline in the world and was named as such by Global Traveler



    El Al security
    As a target for many decades, El Al employs stringent security procedures, both on the ground and on board its aircraft. These effective, though sometimes controversial, procedures have won El Al a reputation for security.[38] In 2008, the airline was named by Global Traveler magazine as the world's most secure airline.[39


    snip
    Security controversy and passenger profiling
    Critics of El Al note that its security checks on passengers include racial profiling[52] and have argued that such profiling is unfair, irrational, and degrading to those subject to such screening. Supporters of El Al argue that there is nothing inherently racist about passenger profiling and that special scrutiny of Muslims may often be necessary for security purposes.
    El Al - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Unfriendly skies are no match for El Al

    JERUSALEM "Has this luggage ever been used by someone else?" asked the El Al security official, a woman with a soft smile and long ponytail at Charles de Gaulle Airport in Paris before my departure to Tel Aviv last weekend. She eyed my weathered black bag, sitting on the floor next to a cubicle used for body searches and interrogations. "My husband sometimes uses the suitcase," I said. "Where has he flown?" she pressed. "Once to the Persian Gulf, I think," I replied. That might have set off alarm bells in her mind, but the "selector," as screeners for Israel's national airline are known, had meanwhile found a bigger problem.

    Examining each stamp in my passport, she froze at a page with Arabic lettering.
    "Where's this for?" she asked. "Syria," I said one of Israel's bitterest enemies. I hurriedly explained: "I'm a journalist. I went there for the president's funeral."

    She summoned a muscular male colleague.

    "You traveling alone?" he asked. I replied I was.

    "But I saw you talking to someone in line," he said. "Who is he?"

    Indeed, to pass the time, I had exchanged a few words with a passenger standing behind me in the long security line about five minutes before. I barely remembered the exchange.

    But like everything else when flying El Al, my idle chatter had not gone unnoticed.

    So it goes when traveling with the world's most security-conscious airline.

    For Americans considering an end to free and easy flying in the USA, El Al provides a glimpse of what might lie ahead after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

    Having lived for decades with bombs and suicide attacks, Israel designed the industry's most impenetrable flight security more than 20 years ago. Officials say it is a stunning success. Despite several wars and endless conflict at home, El Al's sole hijacking was in 1968, before the system began.

    Other catastrophes have been averted since. One bomb was found in 1979 in Zurich in the bag of a German passenger who looked nervous: He had thought he had been hired to smuggle diamonds. Another bomb was discovered a few years ago in the bag of a pregnant English passenger in London, placed there by her Palestinian lover, whose identity security officials had checked beforehand.

    The recent suicide hijackings could never have occurred on El Al, officials say. "Those men's names would be on our list," says Shlomo Dror, a Defense Ministry spokesman who helped design El Al's system. Staff also easily would have noticed that the hijackers traveling first class did not look wealthy enough to pay the fare, he said.

    snip
    Ironically, after a year of heavy losses, El Al's bookings have soared since Sept. 11, with many passengers too fearful to fly other airlines. In stark contrast to other airlines, El Al shelved its plans to lay off 500 people and withdraw some of its Boeing 747-200 aircraft.

    snip
    Despite their current anxieties, Americans also might balk at El Al-style ethnic profiling. Staff scrutinize the passengers' names, dividing them into low-risk (Israeli or foreign Jews), medium-risk (non-Jewish foreigners) and extremely high-risk travelers (anyone with an Arabic name). These people automatically are taken into a room for body and baggage checks and lengthy interrogation. Single women also are considered high-risk, for fear they might be used by Palestinian lovers to carry bombs.

    To sift out who is who, screeners usually begin by asking passengers whether they understand any Hebrew, which most Jews do. Officials argue that such blatant discrimination is necessary.

    "We don't ask the same questions to everyone; there's a surprise element so people can't prepare their answers," says El Al spokesman Nachman Klieman, adding that they don't reveal many of their security secrets publicly.

    In fact, El Al's security kicks in long before the passenger will notice. Call an El Al office in any city to book a ticket, and your name will be checked against a computer list of terrorist suspects compiled by Interpol, the FBI, Shin Bet (Israel's intelligence service) and others.

    My Paris travel agent insisted that the El Al flight on which I had reserved a seat did not exist. That is because El Al changes its schedule so frequently to foil terrorist planning that some agencies find it hard to keep up.

    Once you board, up to five armed undercover agents will travel with you in strategic aisle seats, ready for attack. Furthermore, like many Israelis, cabin crews are former soldiers in the Israeli military who have received combat training. The cockpit door, of reinforced steel, is locked from the inside before passengers board and is opened only after everyone has disembarked at their destination. No matter what's going on in the rest of the plane, it is never opened during flight.

    snip
    Even for regular El Al customers, the security process never feels comfortable, and the pre-flight probing is sure to make you feel somehow suspect. Watching closely for contradictions, the screener dissected my typically haphazard travel plan as though it were a lethal conspiracy.

    "Why did you buy your ticket at the last minute?" the screener asked. "I changed my plans," I said.

    "Why are you carrying wrapped boxes?" "I like to bring chocolates when people invite me over for dinner," I said.

    "Who chose them in the store?" she asked. "I did," I replied.

    snip
    And questioners ask passengers where they purchased their tickets to compare their answers with ticket codes representing the purchase location.

    A lot happens behind the scenes, too. Once luggage moves from the check-in desk to the conveyer belt, it is put in a pressurized box that detonates any explosive before the bag is loaded on the plane, Dror says. No unaccompanied bags are allowed. Those bags remain behind.

    Bags transferring from another airline to El Al have to be checked through security again.

    Security officers watch over cleaning crews while they service the aircraft in foreign airports.

    After the intense security, once on board I felt some relief, knowing that I could drop off to sleep without a care while plainclothes agents with firearms sat nearby, wide awake in the dark.
    full
    USATODAY.com - Unfriendly skies are no match for El Al



    EL AL named most secure airline
    EL AL named most secure airline | Business News | Jerusalem Post

  6. #416
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    Re: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

    I remember a while ago when those Imams from Minneapolis pulled that stunt where they prayed very loudly before boarding, refused to cooperate with flight attendants and then scattered once on board to position themselves near the exits, etc.

    IMO, it was their behavior that was the issue, and their ethnicity that provided even more reason to pull them off the plane. It was a combination of factors at work, since their ethnicity, alone, did not account for why people were alarmed.

    Incidentally, they tried to claim they were being profiled racially despite their ominous behavior, so this whole issue of racial profiling is certainly subject to intentional manipulation by those such as these creeps who pulled the stunt.
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    Re: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Warspite View Post
    Another major problem with racial profiling is this; if I was Al Qaeda and the US started profiling muslims then I would start training white terrorists and sending them to do the dirty work instead - they would have a much higher chance of getting through as not only would they not be given a second thought, authorites would be wasting their time and energy profiling innocent muslims or swarthy looking people.
    As I explained before this is incorrect and easier said than done.



    Obviously your scenario is working well for AQ with countries whose airlines profile. AQ trained white terrorists are infesting the skies as we speak. El Al cant stop all the AQ trained white terrorists that infiltrate their security.

  8. #418
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    Re: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

    Quote Originally Posted by GI Joe View Post
    Long cut and past post. Edited by me to save space.
    Profiling a serial killer is one thing. This is completely irrelevant to my statement and nothing more than a Red Herring.

    We are talking about something that would be purely based on race and religion for the most part. Maybe country of origin.

    Lets tread all over the Constitution.

    Now who is going to pay for the man hours to profile every Muslim Arab in the world hmmmm?
    Last edited by Black Dog; 01-01-10 at 07:08 AM.
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  9. #419
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    Re: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

    Quote Originally Posted by GI Joe View Post
    They most certainly do profile religion and race too but those are not the only factors profiled nor is profiling the only tool used for security. El Als security measures which include profiling rate it the most secure Airline in the world and was named as such by Global Traveler



    El Al security
    As a target for many decades, El Al employs stringent security procedures, both on the ground and on board its aircraft. These effective, though sometimes controversial, procedures have won El Al a reputation for security.[38] In 2008, the airline was named by Global Traveler magazine as the world's most secure airline.[39


    snip
    Security controversy and passenger profiling
    Critics of El Al note that its security checks on passengers include racial profiling[52] and have argued that such profiling is unfair, irrational, and degrading to those subject to such screening. Supporters of El Al argue that there is nothing inherently racist about passenger profiling and that special scrutiny of Muslims may often be necessary for security purposes.
    El Al - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Unfriendly skies are no match for El Al

    JERUSALEM "Has this luggage ever been used by someone else?" asked the El Al security official, a woman with a soft smile and long ponytail at Charles de Gaulle Airport in Paris before my departure to Tel Aviv last weekend. She eyed my weathered black bag, sitting on the floor next to a cubicle used for body searches and interrogations. "My husband sometimes uses the suitcase," I said. "Where has he flown?" she pressed. "Once to the Persian Gulf, I think," I replied. That might have set off alarm bells in her mind, but the "selector," as screeners for Israel's national airline are known, had meanwhile found a bigger problem.

    Examining each stamp in my passport, she froze at a page with Arabic lettering.
    "Where's this for?" she asked. "Syria," I said one of Israel's bitterest enemies. I hurriedly explained: "I'm a journalist. I went there for the president's funeral."

    She summoned a muscular male colleague.

    "You traveling alone?" he asked. I replied I was.

    "But I saw you talking to someone in line," he said. "Who is he?"

    Indeed, to pass the time, I had exchanged a few words with a passenger standing behind me in the long security line about five minutes before. I barely remembered the exchange.

    But like everything else when flying El Al, my idle chatter had not gone unnoticed.

    So it goes when traveling with the world's most security-conscious airline.

    For Americans considering an end to free and easy flying in the USA, El Al provides a glimpse of what might lie ahead after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

    Having lived for decades with bombs and suicide attacks, Israel designed the industry's most impenetrable flight security more than 20 years ago. Officials say it is a stunning success. Despite several wars and endless conflict at home, El Al's sole hijacking was in 1968, before the system began.

    Other catastrophes have been averted since. One bomb was found in 1979 in Zurich in the bag of a German passenger who looked nervous: He had thought he had been hired to smuggle diamonds. Another bomb was discovered a few years ago in the bag of a pregnant English passenger in London, placed there by her Palestinian lover, whose identity security officials had checked beforehand.

    The recent suicide hijackings could never have occurred on El Al, officials say. "Those men's names would be on our list," says Shlomo Dror, a Defense Ministry spokesman who helped design El Al's system. Staff also easily would have noticed that the hijackers traveling first class did not look wealthy enough to pay the fare, he said.

    snip
    Ironically, after a year of heavy losses, El Al's bookings have soared since Sept. 11, with many passengers too fearful to fly other airlines. In stark contrast to other airlines, El Al shelved its plans to lay off 500 people and withdraw some of its Boeing 747-200 aircraft.

    snip
    Despite their current anxieties, Americans also might balk at El Al-style ethnic profiling. Staff scrutinize the passengers' names, dividing them into low-risk (Israeli or foreign Jews), medium-risk (non-Jewish foreigners) and extremely high-risk travelers (anyone with an Arabic name). These people automatically are taken into a room for body and baggage checks and lengthy interrogation. Single women also are considered high-risk, for fear they might be used by Palestinian lovers to carry bombs.

    To sift out who is who, screeners usually begin by asking passengers whether they understand any Hebrew, which most Jews do. Officials argue that such blatant discrimination is necessary.

    "We don't ask the same questions to everyone; there's a surprise element so people can't prepare their answers," says El Al spokesman Nachman Klieman, adding that they don't reveal many of their security secrets publicly.

    In fact, El Al's security kicks in long before the passenger will notice. Call an El Al office in any city to book a ticket, and your name will be checked against a computer list of terrorist suspects compiled by Interpol, the FBI, Shin Bet (Israel's intelligence service) and others.

    My Paris travel agent insisted that the El Al flight on which I had reserved a seat did not exist. That is because El Al changes its schedule so frequently to foil terrorist planning that some agencies find it hard to keep up.

    Once you board, up to five armed undercover agents will travel with you in strategic aisle seats, ready for attack. Furthermore, like many Israelis, cabin crews are former soldiers in the Israeli military who have received combat training. The cockpit door, of reinforced steel, is locked from the inside before passengers board and is opened only after everyone has disembarked at their destination. No matter what's going on in the rest of the plane, it is never opened during flight.

    snip
    Even for regular El Al customers, the security process never feels comfortable, and the pre-flight probing is sure to make you feel somehow suspect. Watching closely for contradictions, the screener dissected my typically haphazard travel plan as though it were a lethal conspiracy.

    "Why did you buy your ticket at the last minute?" the screener asked. "I changed my plans," I said.

    "Why are you carrying wrapped boxes?" "I like to bring chocolates when people invite me over for dinner," I said.

    "Who chose them in the store?" she asked. "I did," I replied.

    snip
    And questioners ask passengers where they purchased their tickets to compare their answers with ticket codes representing the purchase location.

    A lot happens behind the scenes, too. Once luggage moves from the check-in desk to the conveyer belt, it is put in a pressurized box that detonates any explosive before the bag is loaded on the plane, Dror says. No unaccompanied bags are allowed. Those bags remain behind.

    Bags transferring from another airline to El Al have to be checked through security again.

    Security officers watch over cleaning crews while they service the aircraft in foreign airports.

    After the intense security, once on board I felt some relief, knowing that I could drop off to sleep without a care while plainclothes agents with firearms sat nearby, wide awake in the dark.
    full
    USATODAY.com - Unfriendly skies are no match for El Al



    EL AL named most secure airline
    EL AL named most secure airline | Business News | Jerusalem Post

    Thanks, very informative. So they do make separate lists according to ethnicity. It makes sense for them to do that, but once those lists are made what they actually focus on is behavior and how well people handle the questioning. Profiling by religion or race alone is not enough. You need highly trained professionals to detect any suspicious behavior when religion or ethnicity are not all that obvious. El-Al spends a lot of money on these security protocols. I'm not sure if the Isreali government contributes to the cost.

    So the question is, do we really want all airlines to operate this way? Is it really necessary and who is going to pay for the enormous cost? Some low-cost airlines will need government help or simply go bankrupt. Would it not just be easier and more cost-effective to fix what obviously did not work in the current system? It's not like it's not blatantly obvious what actually went wrong.
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  10. #420
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    Re: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

    A lot of Americans have become so insulated from reality.

    Absolutely No Profiling! Pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following multiple choice test.

    These events are actual events from history.. They really happened! Do you remember?

    HERE'S THE TEST



    1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by:

    a.. Superman

    b. Jay Leno

    c. Harry Potter

    d. A Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40



    2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by :

    a. Olga Corbett

    b. Sitting Bull

    c. Arnold Schwarzenegger

    d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40



    3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:

    a. Lost Norwegians

    b. Elvis

    c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women

    d . Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40



    4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:

    a. John Dillinger

    b. The King of Sweden

    c. The Boy Scouts

    d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40



    5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:

    a. A pizza delivery boy

    b. Pee Wee Herman

    c.. Geraldo Rivera

    d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40



    6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:

    a. The Smurfs

    b. Davey Jones

    c. The Little Mermaid

    d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


    7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens , and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:

    a. Captain Kidd

    b. Charles Lindberg

    c. Mother Teresa

    d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40




    8. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:

    a. Scooby Doo

    b. The Tooth Fairy

    c. The Sundance Kid

    d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40




    9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:

    a. Richard Simmons

    b. Grandma Moses

    c. Michael Jordan

    d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40




    10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:

    a. Mr. Rogers

    b. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems

    c. The World Wrestling Federation

    d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40



    11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers.

    Thousands of people were killed by:

    a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd

    b. The Supreme Court of Florida

    c. Mr Bean

    d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40



    12. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:

    a. Enron

    b. The Lutheran Church

    c. The NFL

    d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40



    13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:

    a. Bonnie and Clyde

    b. Captain Kangaroo

    c. Billy Graham

    d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


    No, I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you? So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile certain people.. They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, secret agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of Honor winner and former Governor Joe Foss, but leave Muslim Males between the ages 17 and 40 alone lest they be guilty of profiling.
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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