View Poll Results: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

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Thread: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

  1. #401
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    Re: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

    Another major problem with racial profiling is this; if I was Al Qaeda and the US started profiling muslims then I would start training white terrorists and sending them to do the dirty work instead - they would have a much higher chance of getting through as not only would they not be given a second thought, authorites would be wasting their time and energy profiling innocent muslims or swarthy looking people.

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    Re: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Assigning a profile criteria is a probable cause... therefore the 4th wouldn't apply.
    "Being a muslim" is not probable cause. Probable cause is a defined term that means something more substantial than "I have a hunch" or "It seems reasonable."

    The 14th wouldn't apply because race would not be a criteria.
    The 14th isn't restricted to cases involving race.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Again, I see no one arguing against that directly. PROFILING is normal.

    However

    To my knowledge broadscale religious/racial profiling by officers is not allowed. IE, in a city where its known blacks perform the most robberies you don't just pull over any black person you see to check if they have stuff on them to rob a store. IE, in a city where christians are known to have been vandelizing store fronts of places they disagree with you can't just camp out in front of a church and interrogate everyone there or give full body searches to anyone wearing a cross.

    Again, I doubt if you said "If ALL things are equal, if both people have equal amount of traditioanal warning signs, and one is an 80 year old woman and one is a 30 year old male named Muhammed with a koran in his pack" that people would have issue if you paid a bit more attention to Muhammed. However, what people have issue is if it was that both the 80 year old woman and the 30 year old guy named muhammed and both don't have any warning signs and you go ahead and wave the 80 year old through and then decide to do a cavity search on Muhammed for no other reason than because he's muslim like some have suggested.

    Profiling, almost singularly on race/religion or to such a large degree on those is not efficient, is not effective, and is NOT used by law enforcement in broad scale ways. Its used at most as a small part of a much larger profile, OR used in part during a specific incident when a specific violation is known in a generalized location, IE, a report coming over the speaker saying that a 5'8" hispanic individual in blue jeans and a red cap just robbed a store within a block from you. At that point, yes, focusing only on Hispanics would make senes because you KNOW a crime was committed, you KNOW it was by a hispanic person, and you KNOW its by a hispanic person in your relative close vicinity. That's entirely different than just general racial profiling when you know SOME hispanics at SOME point at SOME place are more likely to rob a store, so you may as well question all of them you see all the time because they might just be guilty.
    Profiling based on religion is not efficient or effective, really, tell that to the people who run security for El Al airlines. The most secure airline in the world. They profile based on religion. And yes I understand that they have a small fraction of the passengers US carriers have. I am tired of people saying we can't do this. The United States has the ability to do this right. We just don't seem to have the testicular fortitude that the greatest generation had. We have become a bunch of weak spineless politically correct pantywaist afraid to hurt the poor muslims feelings. How pathetic.
    When America is strong the world is calm, When America is weak tyrants and terrorist slaughter the meek. ~ SgtRock

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    Re: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Warspite View Post
    Another major problem with racial profiling is this; if I was Al Qaeda and the US started profiling muslims then I would start training white terrorists and sending them to do the dirty work instead - they would have a much higher chance of getting through as not only would they not be given a second thought, authorites would be wasting their time and energy profiling innocent muslims or swarthy looking people.
    Al Qaeda is going to train non muslim whites to join there jihad and sacrifice themselfs for Allah?
    When America is strong the world is calm, When America is weak tyrants and terrorist slaughter the meek. ~ SgtRock

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    Re: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtRock View Post
    Al Qaeda is going to train non muslim whites to join there jihad and sacrifice themselfs for Allah?
    Al Qaeda could easily find whites that wish to lash out at society by causing devastation. Do you think Al Qaeda will only ally with people that are under the impression their sacrifice is for Allah?
    "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."
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    Re: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    Al Qaeda could easily find whites that wish to lash out at society by causing devastation. Do you think Al Qaeda will only ally with people that are under the impression their sacrifice is for Allah?
    Yes, its part of there idology. If you are not a believer you are a kafir. al Qaeda will not align itsself with infidels. That would be like hitler aligning the Nazi party with Jews.
    When America is strong the world is calm, When America is weak tyrants and terrorist slaughter the meek. ~ SgtRock

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    Re: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtRock View Post
    Yes, its part of there idology. If you are not a believer you are a kafir. al Qaeda will not align itsself with infidels. That would be like hitler aligning the Nazi party with Jews.
    Hitler was part Jew but that is another discussion for another day.

    There is no reason someone from Al-Qaeda could not just say they are a Christian to make people never suspect them if we were to profile based on Religion.

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    Re: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Huge difference from picking out a thug on the street and a sophisticated TRAINED terrorist.

    Considering the amount of mistakes and set ups the police cause, do you really want this done on a huge scale? We can't even get it right on a small scale.



    I will again take freedom over fear.



    Serial killers are not just a thug on the street but they are profiled on a variety of characteristics including race. White males are some of the general characteristics of serial killers.

    Characteristics
    Serial killers in the United States tend to share the following general characteristics:[8][9]

    1.The majority are single, white males.
    2.They are often intelligent, with IQs in the "above normal" range.
    3.Despite their high IQs, they have trouble holding down jobs, and often work menial jobs.
    4.They tend to come from unstable families.
    5.As children, they are typically abandoned by their fathers and raised by domineering mothers.
    6.Their families often have criminal, psychiatric and alcoholic histories.
    7.They were abused—psychologically, physically and/or sexually—by a family member.
    8.They have high rates of suicide attempts.
    9.From an early age, many are intensely interested in voyeurism, fetishism, and sadomasochistic pornography.
    10.More than 60 percent wet their beds beyond the age of 12.
    11.Many are fascinated with fire starting.
    12.They are involved in sadistic activity or torturing small animals.

    much more
    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer]Serial killer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]



    Offender profiling
    Offender profiling is a behavioral and investigative tool that helps investigators to profile unknown criminal subjects or offenders. (Psychological profiling is not the same as offender profiling and the two should not be confused.) Offender profiling is also known as criminal profiling, criminal personality profiling, criminological profiling, behavioral profiling or criminal investigative analysis. Television shows such as Law & Order: Criminal Intent, Profiler in the 1990's, the 2005 television series Criminal Minds, and the 1991 film The Silence of the Lambs have lent many names to what the FBI calls "criminal investigative analysis."

    In modern criminology, offender profiling is generally considered the "third wave" of investigative science:


    the first wave was the study of clues, pioneered by Scotland Yard in the 19th century;

    the second wave the study of crime itself (frequency studies and the like);

    this third wave is the study of the abnormal psyche of the criminal.

    Offender profiling is a method of identifying the perpetrator of a crime based on an analysis of the nature of the offense and the manner in which it was committed. Various aspects of the criminal's personality makeup are determined from his or her choices before, during, and after the crime.[1] This information is combined with other relevant details and physical evidence, and then compared with the characteristics of known personality types and mental abnormalities to develop a practical working description of the offender.

    Psychological profiling may be described as a method of suspect identification which seeks to identify a person's mental, emotional, and personality characteristics (as manifested in things done or left at the crime scene).[2] This was used in the investigation of the serial murders committed by Ted Bundy. Dr. Richard B. Jarvis, a psychiatrist with expertise on the criminal mind, predicted the age range of Bundy, his sexual psychopathy, and his above average intellect.[3]

    Another good example and more depth of how psychological profiling could be done is on the investigation on Gary Leon Ridgway, also known as the Green River Killer. An investigator named John Douglas who worked for the FBI provided a twelve-page profile. Briefly, it stated these points:

    Probably a white male who had a dysfunctional relationship with women.
    Organized since he tried to hide the bodies and appeared to spend some time at the river
    Cunning in using rocks to weigh the victims down in the water to conceal them.
    Very mobile with a vehicle.
    Going to kill again.
    Like other serial killers, he would be prone to contacting police wanting to help in the investigations. [4]


    cont
    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offender_profiling]Offender profiling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


    Serial Killer Profiling

    Determining the signature and the MO are both aspects of profiling. The FBI's Behavioral Sciences Unit developed the process of profiling in the 1970s, and Ted Bundy was one of the first serial killers to be profiled. Studies by psychologists and psychiatrists and information gleaned from past serial murders go into the creation of the profile, along with crime-scene information and witness statements. For example, if the victim is Caucasian, the killer is probably Caucasian. If the crime scene shows evidence of careful planning, the killer is likely to be intelligent and older. If the victim was mutilated in a very disorganized way, her killer is probably schizophrenic, and schizophrenics are more likely to be very thin and unkempt [source: Vronsky].
    Profiles are not 100 percent accurate, but they're usually found to be very close. According to Robert Keppell, the detective who took Bundy's confession, the profile assembled for Bundy's crimes was perfect, "even to the point where they predicted he'd have a step-brother and that's what he had" [source: Bellamy].

    cont
    HowStuffWorks "Serial Killer Profiling"


    The security agent who checked in Muhammed Atta, the leader of the September 11 terrorist attacks, and a companion, would later say that looking at the pair his first reaction was to think "If this doesn't look like two Arab terrorists, I've never seen two Arab terrorists." But he immediately felt guilty, and had no legal grounds to search on the basis of their suspicious appearance had he wished to.

    CNN

    Do you trust your gut? If so, how far? How much do you trust it? Michael Tuohey's gut told him something just wasn't right about two airline passengers to whom he issued boarding passes on the morning of September 11th, 2001. A few hours later, and every day since, he only wished he had listened.

    CNN's Drew Griffin has his story.

    (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The 9/11 Commission would describe the dawning of September 11th as temperate and nearly cloudless. By 4:00 a.m., Michael Tuohey was already at work at the U.S. Air ticket counter at the airport in Portland, Maine.

    MICHAEL TUOHEY, RETIRED GATE AGENT: Crystal clear, blue sky. It was just a fabulous day, you know, to go to work.

    GRIFFIN: One hour and 43 minutes into Tuohey's day, two men approached his ticket counter, rushing to catch the 6:00 flight to Boston.

    TUOHEY: They had a tie and jacket on. And as I'm looking at them, you know, they're holding their IDs up, and I'm looking at them. It's not nice, but I said, "If this doesn't look like two Arab terrorists, I've never seen two Arab terrorists."

    GRIFFIN (on camera): That was your first reaction?

    TUOHEY: That was my thought as I'm looking at them. I'm looking at their licenses and I'm looking at them. And that thought ran through my mind.

    GRIFFIN: Where did that thought go?

    TUOHEY: I don't know. At the -- immediately, I felt guilty about thinking something like that. I just said, "This is awful." How, you know -- I've checked in thousands of Arabic people over the years, you know, in doing the same job. "Businessmen," I said. "These are just a couple of Arab business guys."

    GRIFFIN (voice-over): But something about these two men was different. Tuohey says the younger man, Abdul Aziz Alomari (ph) could barely speak English. The other was Muhammad Atta. Tuohey says he had the eyes of a killer.

    TUOHEY: He did. He had the deadest eyes I've ever seen.

    GRIFFIN: Setting aside his gut reaction, Tuohey issued the boarding passes. Less than three hours later, Tuohey was told by a co-worker that American Flight 11 had crashed into the north tower of the World Trade Center.

    TUOHEY: I said, "Oh, my God." I said, "I put two people on that plane." And I was feeling horrible, you know? Here I was think that these guys were terrorists, you know. I just had a flashback. I said, "Now the poor bastards are dead." And then you get the word on the second plane, and then it was like a punch in the stomach.

    GRIFFIN (on camera): You knew then that those two guys were involved?

    TUOHEY: As soon as I heard. The second I heard it. I said, "I was right. I was right." You know, and it was just -- I don't know how you describe it. How your stomach twists and turns. You get sick to your stomach. GRIFFIN: Still does?

    TUOHEY: To this day. Not so much -- like I felt ashamed that I did not react to my instincts.

    GRIFFIN (voice-over): Once he and other employees realized what was happening, they called the FBI. Within hours, he Tuohey viewing this videotape of the two Arab men he had ticketed passing through security. He told the FBI who they were. He also told them that he observed something curious on the tape.

    TUOHEY: They said, "What do you mean?" I said, Well, these guys had on -- they were very business looking. They had on ties and jackets." I said, "If you look at these guys, they both have like open collar -- they have like dress shirts with open collar." I said, "But that's them."
    cont
    CNN.com - Transcripts


    other
    Serial Killers

    Evaluating a psychological profile of a serial killer

    http://www.bxscience.edu/publication...les/killer.pdf

    Serial Killers and Mass Murderers

    Female Serial Killers


    Anyway, No one I have seen who is for profiling is suggesting that race or religion is the only criteria that should be used in profiles. Neither is it being suggested that profiling is the only tool that should be used. It seems many of those against profiling are misrepresenting that both of these things is what is being supported. Race/religion is only a partial aspect of profiling
    and profiling is just one of many tools to be used for countering threats.


    Profiling is a legitimate tool to counter terror threats. It would be stupid and gross negligence to ignore the tendencies and statistics used in profiling that show the probable likelyhood and source of a threat and which grows in accuracy the more focused the type and mo of the attack is. We keep hearing the criticism that if Arabs/Muslims are profiled they will switch who they use but that is easier said than done. Yes there is a possibility that Arab/islamic terrorists will use or could be an old white lady or a white male/female rather than a young Arab/muslim male, but the chance is far smaller for a variety of reasons and why multiple tools including profiling should be used to counter as many sources of threats as possible. For example one reason it is easier said than done is that statistically finding such a non arab person willing to commit such acts in the available pool is far smaller. If it was that easy we would already see it being done but we dont at all.
    The fact is almost all certain types of attacks are from arab/muslim sources and some types are not. Would you look for an arab/muslim source for tree spiking, suv destruction or or some other enviromental based attack? No you wouldnt, It would be a waste of time and resources as it would most likely be some home grown white leftist enviromentalist nutbag. For abortion clinic bombings/attacks you would not look for arab/muslim sources or white leftist enviromenalist nutbags but you would look for some white right wing christian nutbag.



    Profiling used correctly as one of many tools has nothing to do with taking fear over freedom or any such hyperbole. Such statements are the real fear mongering. It can be abused but so can any other law enforcement or defense tool used incorrectly and without oversight but for example should we not arrest or prosecute people who are suspected of commiting a crime because of this potential for abuse? I dont think so.

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    Re: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

    Just a couple thoughts

    "Had Mr. Atta and his fellow killers been arrested on probable cause, their Islamic haunts raided, and assorted charities and fundraisers shut down on September 10, 2001 — cries of racism, profiling, and McCarthyism would have drowned out the purportedly farfetched excuses that such preemptory FBI raids had in fact saved thousands in Manhattan." -- Victor Davis Hanson


    Abd Al-Rahman Al-Rashed, former editor of the London daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat, wrote in the daily under the title "The Painful Truth is that All of the Terrorists are Muslims:"

    " Obviously not all Muslims are terrorists but, regrettably, the majority of the terrorists in the world are Muslims. The kidnappers of the students in Ossetia are Muslims. The kidnappers and killers of the Nepalese workers and cooks are also Muslims. Those who rape and murder in Darfour are Muslims, and their victims are Muslims as well. Those who blew up the residential complexes in Riyadh and Al-Khobar are Muslims. Those who kidnapped the two French journalists are Muslims. The two [women] who blew up the two planes [over Russia] a week ago are Muslims. Bin Laden is a Muslim and Al-Houthi [the head of a terrorist group in Yemen] is a Muslim. The majority of those who carried out suicide operations against buses, schools, houses, and buildings around the world in the last ten years are also Muslims.

    "What a terrible record. Does this not say something about us, about our society and our culture? If we put all of these pictures together in one day, we will see that these pictures are difficult, embarrassing, and humiliating for us. However, instead of avoiding them and justifying them it is incumbent upon us first of all to recognize their authenticity rather than to compose eloquent articles and speeches proclaiming our innocence…

    "Islam has suffered an injustice at the hands of the new Muslims… We will only be able to clear our reputation once we have admitted the clear and shameful fact that most of the terrorist acts in the world today are carried out by Muslims. We have to realize that we cannot correct the condition of our youth who carry out these disgraceful operations until we have treated the minds of our sheikhs who have turned themselves into pulpit revolutionaries who send the children of others to fight while they send their own children to European schools." [4]

    MEMRI - Middle East Media Research Institute


    One in particular stands out: an extraordinary column in the pan-Arabic daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat by Abdel Rahman al-Rashed, the manager of the Al-Arabiya news channel.

    "It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists," he begins, "but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims.

    Boston.com / News / Boston Globe / Opinion / Op-ed / Where is the Muslim outrage?

  10. #410
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    Re: Is it time to profile on airline flights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottD View Post
    Hitler was part Jew but that is another discussion for another day.

    There is no reason someone from Al-Qaeda could not just say they are a Christian to make people never suspect them if we were to profile based on Religion.
    How then does El Al airlines security in Israel profile muslims? They seem to do an excellent job of it.
    When America is strong the world is calm, When America is weak tyrants and terrorist slaughter the meek. ~ SgtRock

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