View Poll Results: Should governments be more concerned about creating wealth or creating well-being?

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  • Wealth

    2 5.88%
  • Well-being

    32 94.12%
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Thread: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

  1. #31
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    Re: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And who made you the arbiter for determining what the government's role is, and whether or not a certain function is legitimate or not?
    This is a poll based on personal opinions, is it not?

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    Re: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

    Wealth will bring well being. Entitlement programs hurt people and keep them in poverty.

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    Re: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post
    Wealth will bring well being. Entitlement programs hurt people and keep them in poverty.
    I think you missed the point.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

  4. #34
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    Re: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

    I didn't vote in the poll for the lack of the option - "Government should not be concerned with providing EITHER of these things".

    It is my responsibility to provide myself with wealth and well being. I sure as hell don't want the government providing those things for me. They can't even manage themselves.
    Fool me once, shame on you.
    Fool me twice....shame on me.

  5. #35
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    Re: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And who made you the arbiter for determining what the government's role is, and whether or not a certain function is legitimate or not?
    It's called an "opinion".

  6. #36
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    Re: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    It doesn't matter what "voters" think is necessary, they do not have perfect knowledge and if what they believe isn't based on factual or logical conclusions, then what is it worth?
    It doesn't matter what "you" think it's necessary, you do not have perfect knowledge and if what you believe isn't based on factual or logical conclusions, then what is it worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    I don't want you to pay for my power lines either but that is mostly because we used AC instead of DC sources of power generation, something that would take a massive undertaking to alter.
    Yeah, but I don't feel like paying for your power lines anyway. If it costs too much to change the setup...well, you can pay for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    On a Federal level with roads you'd have a point, on a state or local level not so much.
    Even if I live in your state I probably would never use the road that connected your house to the outside world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    Not at all, as there would no factual basis for its inclusion.
    No factual basis? What do you mean? What is the "factual basis" for ANYTHING explicitly written in the Constitution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    Those are competitive goods.
    No they aren't. True competition is all but impossible in education, and doesn't currently exist in health care either. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for health and education vouchers to allow people to choose from among their limited options...but let's not pretend like there are a large number of education/health service providers competing for the same clients.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    The nature of its development which was usurped by the Federal government does not change the fact that they are competitive goods (services).

    Hospitals compete on quality, doctors do as well, price competition has been altered because of insurance mandates preventative medicine etc, but none the less it is completely possible as it has already existed in the past.
    Oh you mean actual health CARE instead of health INSURANCE? That's fine if you live in a big city, but if you live in a smaller community you probably don't have much choice there either. In the city I'm originally from, there is only one hospital.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    Education is just as competitive if left to its own devices, there are multiple styles of education you seem to ignore like, homeschooling, tradesman ship et all.
    Again, that's fine if you live in a big city. If you live in rural Montana you're going to go to the only school within 30 miles.

    And what happens if someone can't afford to go to a private school? They just don't get educated? Who is going to pay for the resulting increase in crime and associated prison costs...you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    Why should I contribute to things I never wanted in the first place?
    Because that's the way a society works. You seem to have no problem forcing me to pay for your power and roads, simply because you deem them necessary or because it would be too much of a hassle to change it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    Medicare and Social Security are not required for me to function in life.
    Neither are your power lines or roads. People survived for thousands of years without them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    On top of that my contributions have been diminished and I will pay more for lesser services than previous generations because of their excess with government welfare benefits.
    While that may be a decent argument for reforming those programs, it is not a valid argument for opposing their existence on the grounds that you have a fundamental right to keep every dollar you own.
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  7. #37
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    Re: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It doesn't matter what "you" think it's necessary, you do not have perfect knowledge and if what you believe isn't based on factual or logical conclusions, then what is it worth?
    It isn't worth anything but then again I don't go around making mass proclamations on what others should provide for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yeah, but I don't feel like paying for your power lines anyway. If it costs too much to change the setup...well, you can pay for that.
    That's certainly fine with me.

    I've studied, in great detail, home power generation using solar, wind, micro hydro and small steam.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Even if I live in your state I probably would never use the road that connected your house to the outside world.
    Sure but my county/and or city pays for that through my taxes.

    And for the most part, it's a non competitive good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No factual basis? What do you mean? What is the "factual basis" for ANYTHING explicitly written in the Constitution?
    The general meaning of The Constitution is that people are best left to decide for themselves, I can certainly agree with that.

    Of course if The Constitution said that government should provide a single payer medical care system, I'd disagree because it can be adequately provided through the competitive/cooperative market.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No they aren't. True competition is all but impossible in education, and doesn't currently exist in health care either. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for health and education vouchers to allow people to choose from among their limited options...but let's not pretend like there are a large number of education/health service providers competing for the same clients.
    Are you so sure about education?
    You do know that colleges and pre-k programs compete for students, don't you?
    If they do that, whats stopping it from happening in every other form of education?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Oh you mean actual health CARE instead of health INSURANCE? That's fine if you live in a big city, but if you live in a smaller community you probably don't have much choice there either. In the city I'm originally from, there is only one hospital.
    No I mean medical care, as health care is family genetics, lifestyle, climate etc.
    Medical care is only a portion of health care.

    The city I live in has no hospital but in the surrounding 50 mile radius I have at least 5 to choose from but that isn't really relevant.

    Medical care is competitive on some levels and isn't on others, most of the non competitive portions of medical care are based on the wedge from health insurance and government subsidy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Again, that's fine if you live in a big city. If you live in rural Montana you're going to go to the only school within 30 miles.

    And what happens if someone can't afford to go to a private school? They just don't get educated? Who is going to pay for the resulting increase in crime and associated prison costs...you?
    Homeschooling and apprenticeship are viable alternatives.
    Since when have schools been the only place to receive an education?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Because that's the way a society works. You seem to have no problem forcing me to pay for your power and roads, simply because you deem them necessary or because it would be too much of a hassle to change it.
    There is a stark difference though, people can save their own money for retirement and they can buy medical insurance for their elder years.

    Can any one person build an entire network of paved roads just for them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    While that may be a decent argument for reforming those programs, it is not a valid argument for opposing their existence on the grounds that you have a fundamental right to keep every dollar you own.
    I never claimed that I have a fundamental right to keep every dollar I own.

    Your really good at putting words into my mouth though.
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  8. #38
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    Re: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Sure but my county/and or city pays for that through my taxes.
    Well that's the point...most of the people who live in your county and/or city don't use the road that connects your house to the outside world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    And for the most part, it's a non competitive good.
    How is it any less competitive than, say, health care? Companies bid on construction contracts, and the city government picks the lowest bidder and/or best service provider.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    Are you so sure about education?
    You do know that colleges and pre-k programs compete for students, don't you?
    If they do that, whats stopping it from happening in every other form of education?
    Like I said, I'm in favor of vouchers to allow competition inasmuch as it's possible. But there are a couple of differences between normal schooling, and colleges and pre-K programs:

    1) In college, geography is not as much of an issue because students can live in dorms. Most younger students live with their parents, and are thus confined to their immediate geographic area when choosing a school.

    2) Neither college nor pre-K education is an absolute necessity for a reasonably productive life, whereas everything in between is. If you eliminate public education for those years, many people simply will not get an education. This will create economic and sociological problems for society as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    Medical care is competitive on some levels and isn't on others, most of the non competitive portions of medical care are based on the wedge from health insurance and government subsidy.
    But there isn't really any way to eliminate that, unless you support banning health insurance altogether and/or government incentives for high-deductible plans. And something tells me you don't support either of those options...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    Homeschooling and apprenticeship are viable alternatives.
    Since when have schools been the only place to receive an education?
    Many parents have neither the time nor intelligence to homeschool their child. And apprenticeship is all well and good for high-schoolers...not so good for first graders.

    So what happens if parents can't send their child to private school or homeschool him, so he never advances beyond a kindergarten education? You don't see any problem with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    There is a stark difference though, people can save their own money for retirement and they can buy medical insurance for their elder years.

    Can any one person build an entire network of paved roads just for them?
    For what it's worth, I agree with you that social security is largely unnecessary, in that people can save their money for retirement as they see fit. But medical insurance is different. Unlike retirement, it is a necessity and not a luxury. Furthermore, they may not be ABLE to buy medical insurance if they have some sort of health condition (for now...hopefully that changes soon).

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    I never claimed that I have a fundamental right to keep every dollar I own.

    Your really good at putting words into my mouth though.
    When you are constantly complaining about how you are forced to participate in social programs (the implication being that you should NOT be forced to participate in any such programs), that's sure what it sounds like to me. Rather than criticizing the usefulness of such programs, you question their legitimacy entirely.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 12-29-09 at 03:29 PM.
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  9. #39
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    Re: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Well that's the point...most of the people who live in your county and/or city don't use the road that connects your house to the outside world.
    To make an error clarification of my own, roads are common pool resources and not entirely non competitive goods, although they do share some similarities.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    How is it any less competitive than, say, health care? Companies bid on construction contracts, and the city government picks the lowest bidder and/or best service provider.
    I don't think you understand what non competitive goods are, they are "things" where one persons consumption of it does not prevent another from consuming it.

    Like I said though I made a labeling error, however, it's impossible for one person to pave an entire network of roads to use for their personal use.

    On the other hand, I'd have no problem with individuals being required to fund their portion of road being connected to a main street or road.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Like I said, I'm in favor of vouchers to allow competition inasmuch as it's possible. But there are a couple of differences between normal schooling, and colleges and pre-K programs:

    1) In college, geography is not as much of an issue because students can live in dorms. Most younger students live with their parents, and are thus confined to their immediate geographic area when choosing a school.

    2) Neither college nor pre-K education is an absolute necessity for a reasonably productive life, whereas everything in between is. If you eliminate public education for those years, many people simply will not get an education. This will create economic and sociological problems for society as a whole.
    The time spent between college and pre-k is largely a waste in my eyes, because you spend 12 years in school and come out qualified to do nothing.
    That can definitely be reduced towards a more efficient use of time to knowledge acquisition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    But there isn't really any way to eliminate that, unless you support banning health insurance altogether and/or government incentives for high-deductible plans. And something tells me you don't support either of those options...
    You don't have to ban health insurance, you just remove insurance mandates and uphold the contracts in court.

    I have no problem removing government incentives from the entire medical care market.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Many parents have neither the time nor intelligence to homeschool their child. And apprenticeship is all well and good for high-schoolers...not so good for first graders.

    So what happens if parents can't send their child to private school or homeschool him, so he never advances beyond a kindergarten education? You don't see any problem with this?
    Then you have private tutors, neighborhood home schools and plenty of other alternatives.
    A vacuum of supply for a needed demand creates a whole new market.
    One where it can be competitive and/or cooperative.

    Not only that but it creates a disincentive for people, who can't afford kids and are not really ready, to have kids in the first place.
    Less dependency on third party financing is a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    For what it's worth, I agree with you that social security is largely unnecessary, in that people can save their money for retirement as they see fit. But medical insurance is different. Unlike retirement, it is a necessity and not a luxury. Furthermore, they may not be ABLE to buy medical insurance if they have some sort of health condition (for now...hopefully that changes soon).
    We are talking about 2 different health insurances, I believe your mostly referring to health insurance with maintenance included, while I'm talking about insurance in the form surgical only or immediate medical plans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    When you are constantly complaining about how you are forced to participate in social programs (the implication being that you should NOT be forced to participate in any such programs), that's sure what it sounds like to me. Rather than criticizing the usefulness of such programs, you question their legitimacy entirely.
    They are not legitimate at all, no one bothered ask me if I wanted to participate in them and I'm not given an option to opt out.

    All of those things an individual can provide for him or her self.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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