View Poll Results: Should governments be more concerned about creating wealth or creating well-being?

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  • Wealth

    2 5.88%
  • Well-being

    32 94.12%
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Thread: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

  1. #21
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    Re: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Regicollis View Post
    So individual liberty should be the main aim for government, even when it makes people poor or miserable?
    How can the government make people poor or miserable by leaving them alone

    Am I making you hungry right now by not sticking a hamburger in your mouth?
    Last edited by Ethereal; 12-28-09 at 03:28 AM.

  2. #22
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    Re: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Your question was foolish, so I had to answer it as best as possible.
    You assume that 300 million people would want the same thing.
    I see. So these "micro communities" can grow until you decide that the people don't all want the same thing anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    I did, it's my life and I only get 1 shot to live it, so to have some arbitary body of people, who don't know me or my needs and wants, make decisions for me is insulting.
    That has always been the case throughout human history, unless you want to be a hunter-gatherer living in the woods who doesn't rely on anyone else. The things that make it possible for you to live your life the way you want to (roads, schools, law enforcement, etc) aren't free.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    How could the government possibly make everyone content?
    It can't. What's your point?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 12-28-09 at 03:29 AM.
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  3. #23
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    Re: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I see. So these "micro communities" can grow until you decide that the people don't all want the same thing anymore.
    I didn't say that at all, you are just assuming once again that such a community can exist, it can't as we have seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That has always been the case throughout human history, unless you want to be a hunter-gatherer living in the woods who doesn't rely on anyone else.

    The things that make it possible for you to live your life the way you want to (roads, schools, law enforcement, etc) aren't free.
    I certainly don't need your schools and many of the other things outside of law enforcement and roads.

    And again your making assumptions like others do that I want anarchy, which I never implied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It can't. What's your point?
    It should stop trying to.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I didn't say that at all, you are just assuming once again that such a community can exist, it can't as we have seen.
    Then why did you bring up these communities in the first place if they can't actually exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    I certainly don't need your schools and many of the other things outside of law enforcement and roads.
    Well good for you. Maybe I need the schools but not the roads. Yet I still have to pay taxes for them. Why shouldn't you have to pay taxes for anything that you don't personally use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    It should stop trying to.
    That doesn't make any sense. A) The government DOESN'T try to make every single person content, B) The fact that it's impossible to satisfy 100% of people doesn't mean that it shouldn't do anything. I have never heard a serious politician claim that a policy would satisfy every single person in the country. This absolutist/utopian mindset tends to manifest itself in (I hate to say it) libertarians and Marxists...not people in the political center.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 12-28-09 at 03:59 AM.
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  5. #25
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    Re: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The fact that it's impossible to satisfy 100% of people doesn't mean that it shouldn't do anything.
    Who said the government shouldn't do anything?

  6. #26
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    Re: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Then why did you bring up these communities in the first place if they can't actually exist?
    Your assuming that 300 million people are a community.

    Below can give you an idea of what a community actually is.

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community]Community - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Well good for you. Maybe I need the schools but not the roads. Yet I still have to pay taxes for them. Why shouldn't you have to pay taxes for anything that you don't personally use?
    Because you do use roads, unless you make 100% of everything you have, then of course you would have a point.

    If you did make everything, you wouldn't have time to work to earn an income to pay taxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That doesn't make any sense. A) The government DOESN'T try to make every single person content, B) The fact that it's impossible to satisfy 100% of people doesn't mean that it shouldn't do anything. I have never heard a serious politician claim that a policy would satisfy every single person in the country. This absolutist/utopian mindset tends to manifest itself in (I hate to say it) libertarians and Marxists...not people in the political center.
    So when a politician makes one group of people happy or content, how do they do it?
    At the expense of another maybe? Why is that right?

    There is nothing absolutest about my beliefs, I know for a fact that many people would find my government a dystopia.

    My beliefs are based on that nothing is absolute.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Your assuming that 300 million people are a community.

    Below can give you an idea of what a community actually is.

    Community - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    So can these communities actually exist or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    Because you do use roads, unless you make 100% of everything you have, then of course you would have a point.
    Not everyone uses them the same amount. At some point it just makes more sense to tax people for things instead of trying to measure the exact amount they use every public resource.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    So when a politician makes one group of people happy or content, how do they do it?
    At the expense of another maybe? Why is that right?
    It isn't inherently right or wrong, it depends on the circumstances. Every government action will benefit someone at the expense of someone else; there's no way to avoid that. Laying taxes on highways benefits the people who frequently use highways (yes yes, directly and indirectly) at the expense of people who don't use them as much. Laying taxes on law enforcement benefits the people who rely heavily on law enforcement at the expense of people who don't. Etc, etc.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 12-28-09 at 05:21 AM.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    So can these communities actually exist or not?
    They haven't existed but I never say never, It could exist.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Not everyone uses them the same amount. At some point it just makes more sense to tax people for things instead of trying to measure the exact amount they use every public resource.
    I'm not demanding perfection, I know that someone will inadvertly pay more for something than someone else, whether they like it or not.

    What you believe should be a part of government and what I believe are 2 different things.

    My problem is that other people are trying to force me, through the police power of the state, to participate and pay for things that are unnessecary for them to do.

    I do not want a single payer government medical care system, I do not want to be forced to pay for and send my kids to a government school, those things are goods that function outside of Federal government power and are completely unnessecary for the government to operate.

    Competitive goods should stay on the market and government can handle the non competitive goods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It isn't inherently right or wrong, it depends on the circumstances. Every government action will benefit someone at the expense of someone else; there's no way to avoid that. Laying taxes on highways benefits the people who frequently use highways (yes yes, directly and indirectly) at the expense of people who don't use them as much. Laying taxes on law enforcement benefits the people who rely heavily on law enforcement at the expense of people who don't. Etc, etc.
    The effect of laying taxes for highways is marginable to the government laying taxes for Social Security, Medicare, a national single payer medical care system or government schools.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I'm not demanding perfection, I know that someone will inadvertly pay more for something than someone else, whether they like it or not.

    What you believe should be a part of government and what I believe are 2 different things.

    My problem is that other people are trying to force me, through the police power of the state, to participate and pay for things that are unnessecary for them to do.
    "Unnecessary" in what sense? Obviously the voters consider those things necessary, or they wouldn't have voted for politicians who implemented those things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    I do not want a single payer government medical care system, I do not want to be forced to pay for and send my kids to a government school,
    And I don't want to be forced to pay for the roads and power lines that connect your house to the outside world, which I don't use. But here we are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    those things are goods that function outside of Federal government power and are completely unnessecary for the government to operate.
    Those are two different questions. Your interpretation of the Constitution is one thing...your interpretation of what is "necessary" is completely separate. If the Constitution explicitly authorized public education and public health care, would you then support those programs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    Competitive goods should stay on the market and government can handle the non competitive goods.
    How are education and health care competitive goods? They are human services. In education, there is an inherent monopoly or oligopoly based on geography...not competition. In health care, there is no geographic reason that it HAS to be that way, but in practice it's even more concentrated than education...again, not competition. Furthermore, it is in the interest of society as a whole to have an educated, healthy workforce.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    The effect of laying taxes for highways is marginable to the government laying taxes for Social Security, Medicare, a national single payer medical care system or government schools.
    You are framing it as a moral absolute, which it quite clearly is not, as demonstrated by the highway example. There is no particular reason that you should expect to keep every dollar you earn without contributing anything back to society.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Wealth or well-being - what is most important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    "Unnecessary" in what sense? Obviously the voters consider those things necessary, or they wouldn't have voted for politicians who implemented those things.
    It doesn't matter what "voters" think is necessary, they do not have perfect knowledge and if what they believe isn't based on factual or logical conclusions, then what is it worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And I don't want to be forced to pay for the roads and power lines that connect your house to the outside world, which I don't use. But here we are.
    I don't want you to pay for my power lines either but that is mostly because we used AC instead of DC sources of power generation, something that would take a massive undertaking to alter.

    On a Federal level with roads you'd have a point, on a state or local level not so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Those are two different questions. Your interpretation of the Constitution is one thing...your interpretation of what is "necessary" is completely separate. If the Constitution explicitly authorized public education and public health care, would you then support those programs?
    Not at all, as there would no factual basis for its inclusion.

    Those are competitive goods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    How are education and health care competitive goods? They are human services. In education, there is an inherent monopoly or oligopoly based on geography...not competition. In health care, there is no geographic reason that it HAS to be that way, but in practice it's even more concentrated than education...again, not competition. Furthermore, it is in the interest of society as a whole to have an educated, healthy workforce.
    The nature of its development which was usurped by the Federal government does not change the fact that they are competitive goods (services).

    Hospitals compete on quality, doctors do as well, price competition has been altered because of insurance mandates preventative medicine etc, but none the less it is completely possible as it has already existed in the past.

    Education is just as competitive if left to its own devices, there are multiple styles of education you seem to ignore like, homeschooling, tradesman ship et all.

    Declaring something as non competitive because its history was altered, by an outside force, does not make it so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    You are framing it as a moral absolute, which it quite clearly is not, as demonstrated by the highway example. There is no particular reason that you should expect to keep every dollar you earn without contributing anything back to society.
    Why should I contribute to things I never wanted in the first place?

    Medicare and Social Security are not required for me to function in life.
    On top of that my contributions have been diminished and I will pay more for lesser services than previous generations because of their excess with government welfare benefits.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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