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The Senate & House will successfully pass a reconciled Healthcare bill

The Senate & House will successfully pass a reconciled Healthcare bill?

  • Total voters
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obvious Child said:
Is any of your history correct? Not to mention your grossly inaccurate understanding of what Communism actually is.
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Let's debate this shall we? Define the difference between socialism and communism. How exactly do they differ?

Since Obama wants to control the economy as well as the political system I would say he is more a communist than a socialist. A true socialist does not intend to appropriate wealth in such a way as Obama does. He constantly talks about bringing down the "rich" and redistribution of wealth. Seems like Lenin did much the same thing. If Obama manages to control the airwaves as one of his henchmen desires we will only hear his message and his message is one of eventual state control of everything. We will need a permission slip to go to the bathroom under Obamanism.
 
No more "free speech zones?" :shock:
 
Missouri Mule said:
Yes I believe the American Supreme Soviet will rubberstamp this death panel bill. I see that the Canadian National Health Care has now decided in their infinite wisdom not to pay for non insulin diabetic testing. Welcome to Obamaworld as they reach over and pull the plug on your life support. Of course that will be after they grab what little money you have in your pocket to fund these communist schemes.

The communists won last night. Just buy enough votes and they will win every vote. Ain't Amerika grand?
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"Conservative" says it all:(
 
Why do people say the public option is still in the bill? Its not, look it up.

Honestly this bill is not much change, plus many things do not begin until 2014.
 
earthworm said:
"Conservative" says it all:(
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Yes, I do want to "conserve" America not turn it into a soviet state. I unashamedly admit to that bias. I believe in the free market system; not statism, collectivism and eventually full blown communism. These are all failures but as always, "we'll get it right this time." How many times do we hear that before someone figures it out? Communism doesn't work.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."

Explain to me that this is not the road we are traveling. Please.
 
Cilogy said:
Why do people say the public option is still in the bill? Its not, look it up.

Honestly this bill is not much change, plus many things do not begin until 2014.
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But the taxes will begin almost immediately and soon thereafter the young people who can't pay or won't pay for insurance will have be rounded up and put into jail. There just won't be any benefits. That's the gimmick they put in there to show it was self-sustaining. It is one huge fraud.
 
Missouri Mule said:
But the taxes will begin almost immediately and soon thereafter the young people who can't pay or won't pay for insurance will have be rounded up and put into jail. There just won't be any benefits. That's the gimmick they put in there to show it was self-sustaining. It is one huge fraud.
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That's simply false. I know fear mongering is a helpful tactic, but what you bemoan here won't happen.

What was that you said about wild generalizations you can't support? I guess I should thank you for showing everyone what one looks like. :doh
 
Missouri Mule said:
But the taxes will begin almost immediately and soon thereafter the young people who can't pay or won't pay for insurance will have be rounded up and put into jail. There just won't be any benefits. That's the gimmick they put in there to show it was self-sustaining. It is one huge fraud.
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First of all, I just realized you live like an hour and a half away from me. (unimportant)

Second of all, I was always told on the news that the jailing is just a rumor. Also since the bill will essentially decrease the deficit by billions why would they tax?
 
Cilogy said:
Why do people say the public option is still in the bill? Its not, look it up.

Honestly this bill is not much change, plus many things do not begin until 2014.
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Anyone ever notice that alot of the bills that has passed won't really begin until after the 2012 elections? Wonder why that is....
 
Boo Radley said:
That's simply false. I know fear mongering is a helpful tactic, but what you bemoan here won't happen.

What was that you said about wild generalizations you can't support? I guess I should thank you for showing everyone what one looks like. :doh
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What won't happen? The higher taxes or the jailing of young people for refusing to buy health insurance?
 
Cilogy said:
First of all, I just realized you live like an hour and a half away from me. (unimportant)

Second of all, I was always told on the news that the jailing is just a rumor. Also since the bill will essentially decrease the deficit by billions why would they tax?
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Since the bill has to be yet reconciled this is what is actually in Pelosicare:

“H.R. 3962 provides that an individual (or a husband and wife in the case of a joint return) who does not, at any time during the taxable year, maintain acceptable health insurance coverage for himself or herself and each of his or her qualifying children is subject to an additional tax.” [page 1]

- - - - - - - - - -

“If the government determines that the taxpayer’s unpaid tax liability results from willful behavior, the following penalties could apply…” [page 2]

- - - - - - - - - -


“Criminal penalties

Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses. Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:

• Section 7203 – misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.

• Section 7201 – felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.” [page 3]

When confronted with this same issue during its consideration of a similar individual mandate tax, the Senate Finance Committee worked on a bipartisan basis to include language in its bill that shielded Americans from civil and criminal penalties. The Pelosi bill, however, contains no similar language protecting American citizens from civil and criminal tax penalties that could include a $250,000 fine and five years in jail.

“The Senate Finance Committee had the good sense to eliminate the extreme penalty of incarceration. Speaker Pelosi’s decision to leave in the jail time provision is a threat to every family who cannot afford the $15,000 premium her plan creates. Fortunately, Republicans have an alternative that will lower health insurance costs without raising taxes or cutting Medicare,” said Camp.

According to the Congressional Budget Office the lowest cost family non-group plan under the Speaker’s bill would cost $15,000 in 2016.
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If the health insurance is not purchased this will inevitably be passed onto the "system" through higher taxes or higher medical care costs. One can quibble over the term "taxes" but the effect is exactly the same. The average schmuck will get shafted as usual.

I could have written a health bill on one sheet of paper that would have solved all of the health system's problems that required no additional taxes nor jailing of people. There is no secret what the problem is; it is the payment of costs by third parties which is the origin of this entire problem. Until transparency is part of the solution we will be rearguing this time and again or until we are bankrupt as a nation. This was a self-inflicted wound.
 
obvious Child said:
Is this post suppose to be serious?
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This kind of foolishness is becoming somewhat fascinating to me. At first glance, I am pretty sure he's not actually stupid enough to believe it himself. But, that leaves only one possibility really: That there are readers on here that he thinks ARE stupid enough to believe it, since that is the only reason to be spouting such nonsense.

But, thinking that the people here are that stupid is not only insulting, but pretty stupid in and of itself. So, that leads me back into a falsifying of my original statement (which was that he isn't stupid enough to believe it himself).

Quite a paradox, really.

Can we please make it an infractable offense to post things that are so insulting to the intelligence of people on this forum that they are considered to have insulted everyone? Like maybe a perma bannable offense?
 
Morris provides the basic essentials of this health care monstrosity broken down into its salient components. Anyone should be able to understand how they will be adversely affected. Be carefule of what you wish for; you just might get it.
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MORRIS: No gain, plenty of pain, on Day One

By DICK MORRIS | Posted: Friday, December 25, 2009 12:00 am

Obama's health care bill, the poisoned Kool-Aid making its way through the Senate, will not confer any of its supposed benefits on Americans until 2013. But they will find themselves chafing at its restrictions and paying its taxes immediately after the law takes effect.

This odd juxtaposition of "suffer now, benefit later" is the byproduct of the administration's sleight of hand in specifying 10 years' worth of cuts and taxes in the legislation, but deferring its benefits for the first four years. By comparing six years of spending with 10 years of taxing, it managed to appear deficit-neutral under the rules of the Congressional Budget Office. In fact, the annual revenues fall far short of covering any single year's worth of spending, adding to the deficit for each of the last six years over the next 10 ---- but, viewing the decade as a whole, it appears deficit-neutral.

Yet the political price is hardly neutral. Democrats who misguidedly vote for this monstrosity will face immediate political repercussions.

The harshest of these backlashes will come from the elderly, who will face the rationing immediately.

The first "no" will hit the 10 million elderly who now rely on Medicare Advantage to pay for the care Medicare itself does not cover. In a payoff to AARP, Obama gutted this program in his bill, ending over $100 billion in federal premium subsidies. These 10 million voters will get the grim news that their premiums are going up and their benefits dropping early in 2010. The goal, of course, is to force them to drop Medicare Advantage and sign up, instead, for Medi-gap insurance ---- offered, not coincidentally, by the AARP ---- which provides less coverage at higher cost.

Young people without health insurance can expect to start writing $750 annual checks to Washington to pay the fines written into the bill. (And, after the Conference Committee finishes its work, the fines may be higher.)

All Americans will soon find their insurance premiums rising as a result of the bill. The young uninsured will not buy policies. Why should they? Why not just pay the $750 fine each year? Why pay between 2 percent and 10 percent of their household income before subsidies kick in? It makes no financial sense for anyone making more than $30,000 to pay for coverage. (And most of those under that threshold will be covered by Medicaid, not by private insurance.)

There is no reason for the young to buy private insurance. The legislation requires that health insurers take all comers and not raise rates based on pre-existing conditions. So the young can get coverage when they need it, having only paid $750 per year beforehand.

The difference in cost will, of course, be borne by families throughout America, who will see their health insurance premiums increase. President Obama and his Democratic rubber stamps may appreciate that they are not raising taxes on the middle class, just raising mandatory health insurance premiums, but the distinction is likely to be lost on swing voters.

From now on, any increase in health insurance premiums will become the political responsibility of the Obama administration. As Gen. Colin Powell once said of Iraq, "You break it, you own it."...

(Snip)

MORRIS: No gain, plenty of pain, on Day One
 
Dezaad said:
This kind of foolishness is becoming somewhat fascinating to me. At first glance, I am pretty sure he's not actually stupid enough to believe it himself. But, that leaves only one possibility really: That there are readers on here that he thinks ARE stupid enough to believe it, since that is the only reason to be spouting such nonsense.

But, thinking that the people here are that stupid is not only insulting, but pretty stupid in and of itself. So, that leads me back into a falsifying of my original statement (which was that he isn't stupid enough to believe it himself).

Quite a paradox, really.

Can we please make it an infractable offense to post things that are so insulting to the intelligence of people on this forum that they are considered to have insulted everyone? Like maybe a perma bannable offense?
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Isn't that in some ways the method the Soviets used to do with their dissidents? Shoot them in the back of the head and send the bill for the bullet to their surviving relatives? Banning people forever because you don't agree with their views? How unAmerican is that? I thought we fought a Revolution because we didn't believe in being forced to do things that we disagreed with? I suppose you would have banned Thomas Paine from publishing his works such as "Common Sense." He was unpopular even back then because he said some pretty outrageous things but he was one of the sparks of our Revolution that brought the free America we have enjoyed until the Age of Obama.

Common Sense - Google Books
 
Another view on the direction we are heading:

"I will never forget the awful reality of Communism or believe that it can ever be anything other than the hell it was. The facts of the last century should be enough to put an end to that vicious ideology forever, but now I find that many in our own government support something similar. Barack Obama has lost no time at pointing the country toward socialism during his first year in office. Given the chance, he will soon transform our dear country into a socialist state in which liberty will be restricted and private property much reduced. Unless he is stopped in the elections of 2010 and 2012, Obama, with the support of a compliant Congress, will extend control and regulation to every part of our lives, from prenatal care to the seizure of half of our estates -- and often more than half -- after death. With the assistance of a subservient media, he will create a propaganda machine designed to control the outcome of future elections.

I have tried to describe my experience of communism, but soon it may not be necessary to journey back in time and outside our borders to know what a Communist Christmas is like. If the electorate does not rid Washington of the leftist politicians now controlling our affairs, we will be celebrating a Communist Christmas here in the United States."

American Thinker: Christmas under Communism
 
If it does pass it better be before elections. They know that it won't afterwards. Which is why they are rushing it and basically ignoring the Republicans instead of trying to make it a non-partisan bill.

I knew that once the Democrats came into power that they would do everything that they could to pass everything that they could possibly pass before next election season. I've not been wrong yet. They've been itching to get several bad ideas passed for quite a while now.
 
Missouri Mule said:
Another view on the direction we are heading:

"I will never forget the awful reality of Communism or believe that it can ever be anything other than the hell it was. The facts of the last century should be enough to put an end to that vicious ideology forever, but now I find that many in our own government support something similar. Barack Obama has lost no time at pointing the country toward socialism during his first year in office. Given the chance, he will soon transform our dear country into a socialist state in which liberty will be restricted and private property much reduced. Unless he is stopped in the elections of 2010 and 2012, Obama, with the support of a compliant Congress, will extend control and regulation to every part of our lives, from prenatal care to the seizure of half of our estates -- and often more than half -- after death. With the assistance of a subservient media, he will create a propaganda machine designed to control the outcome of future elections.

I have tried to describe my experience of communism, but soon it may not be necessary to journey back in time and outside our borders to know what a Communist Christmas is like. If the electorate does not rid Washington of the leftist politicians now controlling our affairs, we will be celebrating a Communist Christmas here in the United States."

American Thinker: Christmas under Communism
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:roll:

Makes me sad to think anyone buys this silliness.
 
Missouri Mule said:
What won't happen? The higher taxes or the jailing of young people for refusing to buy health insurance?
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Young people won't be jailed for not having insurance. There's no jail penalty for not having insurance.

Taxes always run the risk of going higher.
 
Boo Radley said:
:roll:

Makes me sad to think anyone buys this silliness.
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What makes me sad is the sad state of American education which doesn't remember the Cold War and what we had to sacrifice to rid (we thought) of the evils of Communism which murdered 100 million people in the 20th Century. And the kids of today wouldn't even know about it because it isn't even taught. Instead they get a steady diet of how horrible America is.

That REALLY makes me sad!
 
Boo Radley said:
Young people won't be jailed for not having insurance. There's no jail penalty for not having insurance.

Taxes always run the risk of going higher.
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They don't get jailed for not having insurance but they do get jailed for not paying the fine. So what's the difference? They are still going to be jailbirds. Invest in prison building futures.
 
Missouri Mule said:
They don't get jailed for not having insurance but they do get jailed for not paying the fine. So what's the difference? They are still going to be jailbirds. Invest in prison building futures.
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Everyone who doesn't pay their taxes faces jail. Nothing new in that. And as there's no reason for either, this isn't much of a concern. But do be honest about what people can go to jail for. It isn't for not having insurance.
 
Missouri Mule said:
What makes me sad is the sad state of American education which doesn't remember the Cold War and what we had to sacrifice to rid (we thought) of the evils of Communism which murdered 100 million people in the 20th Century. And the kids of today wouldn't even know about it because it isn't even taught. Instead they get a steady diet of how horrible America is.

That REALLY makes me sad!
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I think we know about the cold war and the Red Scare. But using fears of socialism is older than the civil war. Using fears of communism not much newer. I do wish the fear mongering could at least be original.

And yes, those who need to have their self esteem stroked can't bear to hear that the American government ever made a mistake or did anything wrong, unless of course it was done by a liberal. I get that. But let's try to at least be honest with our paranoia. ;)
 
Boo Radley said:
I think we know about the cold war and the Red Scare. But using fears of socialism is older than the civil war. Using fears of communism not much newer. I do wish the fear mongering could at least be original.

And yes, those who need to have their self esteem stroked can't bear to hear that the American government ever made a mistake or did anything wrong, unless of course it was done by a liberal. I get that. But let's try to at least be honest with our paranoia. ;)
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Nice strawman argument.
 
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