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Thread: Should you or your family members be able to sell your organs post mortem?

  1. #31
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    Re: Should you or your family members be able to sell your organs post mortem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    When it comes to aspects of politics like the war on drugs, I think legalization is a good thing. Organs are different. The black market is not that widespread for stolen organs, and exists mostly in parts of the world where the government has very little enforcement ability. I don't think we have such an issue with it in the Western world, which was the founding institution of organ donation.
    I'm not saying it's a big problem, I'm saying that any problems that DO arise from a black market (such as harvesting organs from unwilling people) would be eliminated or reduced.

    Besides, if it isn't a problem anyway, I fail to see how legalizing it would cause those problems to appear. Either there is enough demand for black market organs (and the associated abuses), or there isn't. If there is a respectable alternative, this would reduce the demand for black market organs even more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius
    I understand that the ability to sell organs would incentivize more people to do it (or at least their families), but the corruption that would definitely come with it would create a host of other problems on society.
    Like what? And do these problems outweigh the loss of thousands of lives each year?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius
    I don't see what's wrong with the current system wherein people who want to donate organs after death simply indicate it with their drivers license.
    That system doesn't meet the necessary demand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius
    I don't want my organs donated for spiritual reasons and would not appreciate my family doing it after I die. They know my wishes, but the ability to sell my body parts would make them reconsider.
    I don't know how inheritance law works in Canada, but in most US states you can clearly say that in your will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius
    Depends on the country. I'm pretty sure that in Canada, people under 18 get priority, and the elderly are not eligible.
    In the US, it's more or less a crapshoot. Your doctor assesses your need, then you go to a random spot on the waitlist, among other people who were evaluated by different doctors with different standards. If you're lucky, you make it to the top of the list and get your organ. If not, you die.

    Market forces wouldn't create a perfect need-based system, but they would certainly help identify who needs the organs the most.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius
    It would also create a host of other problems, such as extorting people for their organs, the poor being more likely to give up body parts and thus increase health risks, debt being repaid with organs, etc.
    Extorting people for their organs - This is a black market abuse. If it isn't a problem now, why would it be a problem if organ sales were legalized?

    The poor being more likely to give up body parts - Probably true. But so what? If they need $15,000 more than they need a kidney, and someone else needs a kidney more than they need $15,000, then the two can make an exchange and everyone is happy.

    Debt being repaid with organs - Not unless the law specifically authorized that, which I would oppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius
    Corruption would be rampant. I disagree that the black market is already that bad and should just be legalized.
    I don't see how legalizing it and regulating it could possibly make the black market worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius
    The underground organ market is nowhere near as big as it would be if people could sell their bodies. Theft of body parts would skyrocket. Can you imagine if a kidney could fetch $100,000 on the open market? The urban legend of people being drugged and waking up in a bath tub would become common place, with no way to track the perpetrators.
    Legalization tends to REDUCE prices, as demand stays the same while supply increases. It also eliminates the risk premium in the price associated with getting killed or arrested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius
    I can tell you from a medical perspective that the vast majority of transplants that have long-term success are those from family members with the same blood type, followed by those who have only the same blood type. The majority of charitable donations are between family members, friends, and communities.

    Legalizing this would not increase the number of organs available per se, but it would definitely make money the determiner for who gets them.
    Why? People could still donate organs to their family members, friends, or even a complete stranger if they wanted to.
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  2. #32
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    Re: Should you or your family members be able to sell your organs post mortem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That doesn't make sense. Are you talking about those people who you just said wouldn't obey the laws? If the criminals don't obey the law anyway, then it doesn't matter whether there is a legal market for organ sales or not, as they won't participate. So why do you continue citing them?
    A little thing I like to call "demand".

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Are you suggesting that legalizing the sale of organs actually CREATES demand instead of just acknowledging that it already exists?
    It's extremely difficult for criminals to make money on organs right now. Allowing the sale of organs enables those criminals to make money, hence more crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And otherwise respectable people visited speak-easies owned by the mafia. Funny how that problem disappeared when Prohibition ended.
    Hmm...I think you wore out the "prohibition" card in the last "legalize all drugs" thread. Maybe it was wore out in the last "legalize all prostitution" thread, but if not I'm sure some wak-job will wear it thin in the next "legalize all weapons including nuks" thread.

    The prohibition is not like organ transplants at all. I think it's time for you to find some new material.

  3. #33
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    Re: Should you or your family members be able to sell your organs post mortem?

    I was hoping we could explore the "what if we had a surplus of doctors like Israel" rout, but if this is just going to turn into another "we should legalize everything and tax it" conversation then that's to bad. There's a reason that libertarian bull**** never won them a major office. In practice, it doesn't work.

  4. #34
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    Re: Should you or your family members be able to sell your organs post mortem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    With the supply of useable organs limited, should a person or that person's family be able to sell their organs after they have died?

    Please answer with why or why not.
    No. Organ donor cards should be mandatory for every citizen. This way, the most in need get an organ first.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Re: Should you or your family members be able to sell your organs post mortem?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No. Organ donor cards should be mandatory for every citizen. This way, the most in need get an organ first.
    That's dynamic I hadn't considered. If I wanted to sell a kidney, why wouldn't I wait market forces gave me the best price? We do the same with every other commodity.

    What do you suppose the mortgage rate of kidneys would be? What interest rate would the Fed charge Obama'care?
    Last edited by Jerry; 12-21-09 at 01:10 AM.

  6. #36
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    Re: Should you or your family members be able to sell your organs post mortem?

    I'll add a new angle to this.

    Since we are on the cusp of creating replacement organs for people in need, do any of you believe they will be created for free or donated?
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    Re: Should you or your family members be able to sell your organs post mortem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I'll add a new angle to this.

    Since we are on the cusp of creating replacement organs for people in need, do any of you believe they will be created for free or donated?
    Please clarify what you are asking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #38
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    Re: Should you or your family members be able to sell your organs post mortem?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Please clarify what you are asking.
    I guess in whole what I am asking is, why is everyone except the donor patient allowed to profit from organ transplants but not the donor actually giving something up.

    The medical staff, the hospital, and the receiving patient profit in some way from the donor but he/she does not.

    Second part is, science has found multiple ways to grow organs, should those organs only be made available by donation?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #39
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    Re: Should you or your family members be able to sell your organs post mortem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I'm not saying it's a big problem, I'm saying that any problems that DO arise from a black market (such as harvesting organs from unwilling people) would be eliminated or reduced.

    Besides, if it isn't a problem anyway, I fail to see how legalizing it would cause those problems to appear. Either there is enough demand for black market organs (and the associated abuses), or there isn't. If there is a respectable alternative, this would reduce the demand for black market organs even more.
    Legalizing it would increase the likelihood of more people who would turn to organs for monetary gain, through corrupt channels. You can't use standard supply and demand when looking at organs. They have an extremely short viability rate outside of the body, which means tracking the total supply at any given time would be difficult; secondly, organs in peoples' bodies do not count as part of the supply, because willingness to donate and be actively doing so would have to be considered.

    Given that, determining price would be at the whim of the seller, and likely in accordance with the desperation of the individual. It would be market rape, not market "forces".

    Finally, it doesn't create any new safe guards placed on the sourcing of organs. Okay, so you could make it mandatory that certification is needed before harvesting organs, to ensure consent, etc. But all that would do is facilitate the continued existence of the black market, which has no desire to do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Like what? And do these problems outweigh the loss of thousands of lives each year?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia: organ trade
    Before legislation passed in 1994, India had a successful legal market in organ trading. Low cost and availability brought in business from around the globe and transformed India into one of the largest kidney transplant centers in the world.[3] Several problems began surfacing during the period of legal organ trade in India. In some cases patients were unaware a kidney transplant procedure even took place.[4] Other problems included patients being promised an amount much higher than what was actually paid out.[5] Ethical issues surrounding contribution donating pushed the Indian government to pass legislation banning the sale of organs.[6]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That system doesn't meet the necessary demand.
    But it does so in a way that is corruption-free, and is controlled by medical professionals. Removing the organ itself can lead to life-threatening complications from the donor, let alone transplanting it and avoiding infection and rejection. Legalization would not ensure safe practices, it would simply incentivize the selling of organs through all means, fair and nefarious alike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I don't know how inheritance law works in Canada, but in most US states you can clearly say that in your will.
    Ok, I know we are dealing with post-mortem issues, but I expanded it to include the organ trade in general, which is a subject that you can't avoid in this discussion. If you monetize post-mortem organs, then the living will be involved in that as well, since there is no practical distinction between the organs from a deceased person or from the living.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    In the US, it's more or less a crapshoot. Your doctor assesses your need, then you go to a random spot on the waitlist, among other people who were evaluated by different doctors with different standards. If you're lucky, you make it to the top of the list and get your organ. If not, you die.
    Then the medical system should be lobbied in a democratic way to refine its standards, such as increasing availability to people in certain age groups, and by educating the public on organ donation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Market forces wouldn't create a perfect need-based system, but they would certainly help identify who needs the organs the most.
    I am just thinking about the victims if we openly allow organ selling. Legalization is not the solution. People will always find ways to profit more.

    There is virtually no way to track organ sourcing - post-mortem or living donor - which is the whole point of why selling organs remains illegal. By making it legal we are basically giving the organ thieves the okay to bring their business out into the open.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Extorting people for their organs - This is a black market abuse. If it isn't a problem now, why would it be a problem if organ sales were legalized?
    People who are extorted seldom run to the law. What if you were asked to give a kidney to repay a huge loan you owed? To keep your house? To immigrate to a better country? Yes, these things could happen already, by legalization means we are saying it's okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The poor being more likely to give up body parts - Probably true. But so what? If they need $15,000 more than they need a kidney, and someone else needs a kidney more than they need $15,000, then the two can make an exchange and everyone is happy.
    Medicine is about healing, not helping people make ends meet in such a grotesque way. I can think of one example that contradicts this, which is some blood banks give you money for donating your blood, but that's because of shortages in some areas. Besides, blood regenerates within less than a day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I don't see how legalizing it and regulating it could possibly make the black market worse.
    As I said earlier, medical institutions can't possibly track the source if it's coming from outside of their walls. Hell, even sometimes in their walls, there is abuse:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia: organ theft
    Another example is from Brazil, where a woman had a routine ovarian cyst surgery but later realized that one of her kidneys had disappeared during her operation. This had occurred without her knowledge when she realized after she went for a checkup at a different location than the hospital that she had her surgery. The hospital refused to provide her with any information or justification for her organ theft that had taken place during her surgery. These types of routine acts of theft are done for organ trafficking that can be later sold to the highest bid.
    Even though it can still happen in areas with low enforcement, at least keeping it within the confines of medical diagnostic criteria tends to make it fair, balanced, and monitored. Once you put a price tag on the organs, that places an unfair burden on doctors to facilitate not only a life saving transaction, but a financial transaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Legalization tends to REDUCE prices, as demand stays the same while supply increases. It also eliminates the risk premium in the price associated with getting killed or arrested.
    As mentioned earlier, supply and demand doesn't work the same with organs. We know about current supply in the legal system because those about to donate are registered in the stand-by system, since they are on their death beds. As for getting killed or arrested, that can still happen even in the legal system.

    I equate this to prostitution being legalized in Amsterdam. Yes, you can hire a hooker, but what if you have a special interest in children? It's still illegal there, but the black market services it. Should we make that legal too, since the demand is there? At some point the morals of society have to step in and say no, even if money is to be made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Why? People could still donate organs to their family members, friends, or even a complete stranger if they wanted to.
    Because supply does not include the total organs in the living population. Although to the black market, this would still be the case. The only difference would be that they could be shielded from penalties for having a harvested organ in their possession.

  10. #40
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    Re: Should you or your family members be able to sell your organs post mortem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    A little thing I like to call "demand".
    We have already established that criminals would not participate in a hypothetical LEGAL organ market anyway. Therefore they are irrelevant to the subject at hand, except inasmuch as the legal organ market would indirectly affect them by taking away their customers and reducing the incentive for them to be in business in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry
    It's extremely difficult for criminals to make money on organs right now. Allowing the sale of organs enables those criminals to make money, hence more crime.
    That goes against all laws of supply and demand. If someone needs a kidney right now, they don't really have any alternative to the black market. If there is a legal organ market, they would. Thus no ability for criminals to make money on organs.

    Look at anything that's currently legal...say, getting a root canal. I could go to a skilled dentist, or I could go to some random guy who works for a criminal enterprise. Why would anyone ever choose the latter?

    Similarly, why would I buy an organ out of an ice chest in some guy's van, if I could buy it from a hospital and have a licensed doctor operate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry
    Hmm...I think you wore out the "prohibition" card in the last "legalize all drugs" thread. Maybe it was wore out in the last "legalize all prostitution" thread, but if not I'm sure some wak-job will wear it thin in the next "legalize all weapons including nuks" thread.

    The prohibition is not like organ transplants at all. I think it's time for you to find some new material.
    Oh give me a ****ing break. You brought up GUN CONTROL for Christ's sake. I'm still scratching my head how that has anything to do with anything, whereas the analogy with other forms of black markets is obvious.
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