View Poll Results: The United States Constitution protects

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  • The Biological "person"

    9 40.91%
  • The Metaphysical "person"

    3 13.64%
  • Other ; Please explain

    10 45.45%
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Thread: What aspect of a person does the Constitution protect?

  1. #141
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    Exclamation Re: What aspect of a person does the Constitution protect?

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkWizard12 View Post
    To explore..

    The constitution plainly states:

    "All persons born or naturalized in the united states are...citizens..."

    This means that Persons + Born(or naturalized) = Citizens.
    So, according to this, there is a seperation between "born" and "persons", and when there is both, you achieve citizenship.

    This doesn't that we should deny "life liberty, and the persuit of happyness" because someone isnt a citizens, rather, we should deny it or not deny it based on our values.
    and my values, say no, we shouldn't.
    DarK,... The 5th and 14th Amendments actually goes even further than what you just said. They specifically state that all persons (be they citizens or not) have a right to their life,.. due process and equal PROTECTION under the laws.

  2. #142
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    Re: What aspect of a person does the Constitution protect?

    Chuz--

    Is your position that you want the US to make all abortions illegal? Should women who have abortions or the health professionals who offer that medical procedure go to prison?
    Last edited by windovervocalcords; 12-27-09 at 12:23 PM.

  3. #143
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    Arrow Re: What aspect of a person does the Constitution protect?

    Quote Originally Posted by windovervocalcords View Post
    Chuz--

    (1) Is your position that you want the US to make all abortions illegal? (2) Should women who have abortions or the health professionals who offer that medical procedure go to prison?
    1: No. Some abortions (life of the mother, rape, etc.) are in fact Constitutionally justifiable.

    2: Yes. In some (but not all) circumstances, that is. Everyone has a right to due process, fair and speedy trial, face their accusers, jury of their peers, appeals, etc. So, realistically, every case is unique and the outcomes are not automatic.

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    Re: What aspect of a person does the Constitution protect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    1: No. Some abortions (life of the mother, rape, etc.) are in fact Constitutionally justifiable.

    2: Yes. In some (but not all) circumstances, that is. Everyone has a right to due process, fair and speedy trial, face their accusers, jury of their peers, appeals, etc. So, realistically, every case is unique and the outcomes are not automatic.
    I think your position on number 2 is untenable.

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    Question Re: What aspect of a person does the Constitution protect?

    Quote Originally Posted by windovervocalcords View Post
    I think your position on number 2 is untenable.
    Not that it matters,... but

    Why don't you think I can defend it?

    Do you disagree that defendents have all the rights I listed?

  6. #146
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    Re: What aspect of a person does the Constitution protect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    Not that it matters,... but

    Why don't you think I can defend it?

    Do you disagree that defendents have all the rights I listed?
    We have enough people in prison as it is without creating a prison of unwed mothers. It sounds like you'd like to revert to the Magdalene homes again.

    "Magdalene Asylums were institutions for so-called "fallen women", most of them operated by the Roman Catholic Church. In most asylums, the inmates were required to undertake hard physical labour such as laundry work. In Ireland, such asylums were known as Magdalene Laundries. It has been estimated that 30,000 women were admitted during the 150-year history of these institutions, often against their will, sometimes by state order. The last Magdalene Asylum in Ireland closed on September 25, 1996."

    [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Asylum[/ame]
    Last edited by windovervocalcords; 12-27-09 at 12:50 PM.

  7. #147
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    Anarcho-fascist's Avatar
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    Re: What aspect of a person does the Constitution protect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    Oh, thank God!

    ( just kidding)
    Oh no! Not the G word!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    Please provide a reference or source which supports this claim.
    Quote Originally Posted by 5th Amendment
    nor shall any person ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law
    It protects my life, liberty, or property from being taken without due process of law.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    And here I thought that rocks don't have rights just because they aren't alive.
    So you support poison ivy rights?



    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    Again,.. if you have a reference for this... can you provide it? It's not that I disagree,... but I really would like to see something in the way of a reference that supports your claim here.
    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_intelligence"]This link[/ame] mentions some cognitive abilities, and limitations in dogs. In general dogs are more limited in their mental abilities than humans are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    I'm curious.

    How "aware" do you think my preemie daughter was, when she was born?
    More aware than someone in my coma example.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    Two years ago, my wife suffered full cardiac arrest. She required 45 minutes of CPR. She was hit with the defib at least nine times. She lapsed into a coma immediately,... her EEG was flatline. No dreams, no thoughts, no pain, no awareness, no sentience.

    Twice, the neurologist came to me to ask if I have discussed with the family, chaplins and other dr.s about removing her from life support. She was rated a 3 (the worse possible) on the Coma Scale.

    She remained in the coma for 3 weeks.

    She was on a ventilator which was doing 100% of her breathing for her.

    She had catheters for her bodily functions.

    A feeding tube inserted directly into her stomach... (originally she was fed through a tube in her nose)

    She was posturing (feet and hands drawn up like someone with cerebal palsy)

    While she was on the vent, she contracted two infections - Mrsa and Acinetobacter .

    Her prognosis was not a good one at all.

    I share all of this with you as a preface to a really important question. (Important to me, that is... and I hope you will give it some thought before answering.)

    "What doctor would pull the plug on a comatose patient (like my wife) if that patient had even a fraction of the prognosis (forecast) that a pre-birth child has?"
    I suppose that very few would. Do you mind telling how things turned out?

  8. #148
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    Re: What aspect of a person does the Constitution protect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    Two years ago, my wife suffered full cardiac arrest. She required 45 minutes of CPR. She was hit with the defib at least nine times. She lapsed into a coma immediately,... her EEG was flatline. No dreams, no thoughts, no pain, no awareness, no sentience.

    Twice, the neurologist came to me to ask if I have discussed with the family, chaplins and other dr.s about removing her from life support. She was rated a 3 (the worse possible) on the Coma Scale.

    She remained in the coma for 3 weeks.

    She was on a ventilator which was doing 100% of her breathing for her.

    She had catheters for her bodily functions.

    A feeding tube inserted directly into her stomach... (originally she was fed through a tube in her nose)

    She was posturing (feet and hands drawn up like someone with cerebal palsy)

    While she was on the vent, she contracted two infections - Mrsa and Acinetobacter .

    Her prognosis was not a good one at all.

    I share all of this with you as a preface to a really important question. (Important to me, that is... and I hope you will give it some thought before answering.)

    "What doctor would pull the plug on a comatose patient (like my wife) if that patient had even a fraction of the prognosis (forecast) that a pre-birth child has?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarcho-fascist View Post
    I suppose that very few would. Do you mind telling how things turned out?
    Thank you for a direct answer to my direct question.

    You have earned a friend request if you are interested.

    It has taken two years of therapy and recovery. My wife now breathes on her own, walks talks, showers and dresses herself (all with diminished capacities). She's very much the same person she was before... but some things have changed. (not all for the better). She still can not read, write, do math or anything like that above maybe a 2nd grade level. But she could have a conversation with you and understand what you are saying at almost any level.

    For all that she has left to re-learn, she has to do so with a damaged brain.

    I would guess that she's at between 60 and 70% of her old self and while I have hopes,.. I don't see how she will ever be completely independent again.

  9. #149
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    Re: What aspect of a person does the Constitution protect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    Thank you for a direct answer to my direct question.

    You have earned a friend request if you are interested.

    It has taken two years of therapy and recovery. My wife now breathes on her own, walks talks, showers and dresses herself (all with diminished capacities). She's very much the same person she was before... but some things have changed. (not all for the better). She still can not read, write, do math or anything like that above maybe a 2nd grade level. But she could have a conversation with you and understand what you are saying at almost any level.

    For all that she has left to re-learn, she has to do so with a damaged brain.

    I would guess that she's at between 60 and 70% of her old self and while I have hopes,.. I don't see how she will ever be completely independent again.
    What's that have to do with the topic?

  10. #150
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    Re: What aspect of a person does the Constitution protect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    1: No. Some abortions (life of the mother, rape, etc.) are in fact Constitutionally justifiable.
    If a human is granted rights at conception then why should people who get raped be able to violate the life of the fetus? Same with incest.

    Can you clear this up for me?
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

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