• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Does life biologically begin at conception?

Does a new person's life "biologically" begin at conception?

  • Total voters
    72
rivrrat said:
Soo... if someone writes it, it must be true? Seriously? This is your argument?
Click to expand...

They more than wrote it. They fought on the basis for it. Killed and died for it. As has many generations after them.

You are more than welcome to deny the fact that your own rights are inherent,... That's all well and good.

When you start denying the inherent rights of others,... you will find out just how "real" they are.
 
Chuz Life said:
They more than wrote it. They fought on the basis for it. Killed and died for it. As has many generations after them.

You are more than welcome to deny the fact that your own rights are inherent,... That's all well and good.

When you start denying the inherent rights of others,... you will find out just how "real" they are.
Click to expand...

They're only "real" in our system of government, in our borders. They are only granted here. Otherwise, they are earned and fought for.

Of course my own rights are not inherent. It's not even remotely possible for them to be inherent. If I lived in a different country, I would have different rights. If I lived outside the borders of any country at all, I would have different rights - the ones I EARN.

So again, just because someone writes 'endowed by a creator', it must be true? :roll: There is no 'creator' to 'endow' anything of the sort. And if there were, then we wouldn't be arguing over them and changing them all the time since they'd be 'inherent' and there'd be no argument about them.
 
rivrrat said:
So again, just because someone writes 'endowed by a creator', it must be true? :roll: There is no 'creator' to 'endow' anything of the sort. And if there were, then we wouldn't be arguing over them and changing them all the time since they'd be 'inherent' and there'd be no argument about them.
Click to expand...

If you are alive (and humans in the embryonic stage of their lives are),... you have a right to live the life you are already living.

You say there is no "creator?" I'm guessing by that you mean "God."

News for you,... if you can look at a creature and deny they have a right to their life,.. even as you would defend your own,...

There's a "God" thing going on,....

You just don't see who it is playing the role.
 
Chuz Life said:
If you are alive (and humans in the embryonic stage of their lives are),... you have a right to live the life you are already living.
Click to expand...
Yup, in this country *I*, as a person, do have a right to live my life. That right is granted to me by my government.

You say there is no "creator?" I'm guessing by that you mean "God."
Click to expand...
Any creator.

News for you,... if you can look at a creature and deny they have a right to their life,.. even as you would defend your own,...

There's a "God" thing going on,....

You just don't see who it is playing the role.
Click to expand...
ROFL I didn't realize I was a goddess for eating bacon. That's awesome!

My dog killed a squirrel, is he a god too? :shock:
 
rivrrat said:
Yup, in this country *I*, as a person, do have a right to live my life. That right is granted to me by my government.
Click to expand...

A right is a "just claim" Rivrr...

Are you saying that you would not have a justifiable claim to your life in the absense of Government recognition of that right?

Ever heard of "anarchy?"

Your right to your life persists even under anarchy. You just have to rely more on yourself than the good-will of others to defend it.

rivrrat said:
Any creator.
Click to expand...

My Parents were my creators.
 
Chuz Life said:
A right is a "just claim" Rivrr...

Are you saying that you would not have a justifiable claim to your life in the absense of Government recognition of that right?

Ever heard of "anarchy?"

Your right to your life persists even under anarchy. You just have to rely more on yourself than the good-will of others to defend it.
Click to expand...
And I would have whatever rights I could defend. As soon as someone bigger and stronger or more charismatic takes them away from me, then I have them no longer.


My Parents were my creators.
Click to expand...
Did they do a special ceremony to 'endow' you with rights?
 
rivrrat said:
And I would have whatever rights I could defend. As soon as someone bigger and stronger or more charismatic takes them away from me, then I have them no longer.
Click to expand...

And where (if not from your creator-s) would the rights you are now defending,... come from?

rivrrat said:
Did they do a special ceremony to 'endow' you with rights?
Click to expand...

Yes!

As a matter of fact they did.

They called it "conception."

Now say gnite gracie,..
 
Last edited:
Chuz Life said:
I'm saying your strawman argument that nature can't be expected to respect our rights, so therefore they can't possibly be "inherent" is just that,... a classic strawman argument.

Description of Straw Man


The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:
  1. Person A has position X.
  2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
  3. Person B attacks position Y.
  4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.
Click to expand...


You'd be right, if what I was saying was "nature can't be expected to respect our rights". What I'm saying is that you have no natural rights, innate rights, or inherent rights. The only things you are guaranteed inherently are the laws of physics. something's not much a 'right', especially an innate one, when it can be taken away so easily. That sounds more like a privilege to me.
 
EpicDude86 said:
Nature doesn't have moral affirmations, sentiments, and philosophical concepts.

Correct?
Click to expand...

Well, humans exist in nature, so it depends on what you mean by "have" moral affirmations, though I'm not sure what difference it would make.
 
Chuz Life said:
And where (if not from your creator-s) would the rights you are now defending,... come from?
Click to expand...
They come from nowhere but myself. I determine my rights by deciding what I want and defending what I want. As long as I can defend it, what I want is my right.

Unless of course my rights are granted to me by the country in which I reside. And then I get what THEY want to give me despite what I may want or what I feel is my 'right'. I can, of course, work to change their point of view as well. (hence the constant changes to the rights we have or don't have)
 
rivrrat said:
They come from nowhere but myself. I determine my rights by deciding what I want and defending what I want. As long as I can defend it, what I want is my right.

Unless of course my rights are granted to me by the country in which I reside. And then I get what THEY want to give me despite what I may want or what I feel is my 'right'. I can, of course, work to change their point of view as well. (hence the constant changes to the rights we have or don't have)
Click to expand...

None of this changes the moral sentiment underlying natural rights. Either you agree with negative individual liberties or you don't.
 
Ethereal said:
Well, humans exist in nature, so it depends on what you mean by "have" moral affirmations, though I'm not sure what difference it would make.
Click to expand...

Since Mother Nature aborts babies all the time and let's baby animals get eaten by bigger animals...I'm just going to assume there is no natural "moral affirmations" ;) at least nothing to be compared with human morals. :lol:
 
Ethereal said:
None of this changes the moral sentiment underlying natural rights. Either you agree with negative individual liberties or you don't.
Click to expand...

I have no idea what you mean by "agree with". Negative individual liberties aren't something you can "agree with".

Pray tell, what is this moral sentiment you speak of?
 
Chuz Life said:
In my highschool debate classes,.. we were told that a sure sign of defeat is when someone starts claiming victory or telling you you have lost.
Click to expand...

You seem to be unaware of the circumstances here. Not once have you been able to defend your argument, instead you are constantly shifting your arguments from one point to another. Generally, mockery of your logic is a sign that the underlying principles you are utilizing are invalid.
 
rivrrat said:
You were poorly educated. Rights are in no way inherent. They are granted or taken. We GRANT the presumption of innocence in our legal system. It is not some inherent 'right'. We GRANT him a right to life. We GRANT him a right to equal protection under OUR law, etc. Not a single one of these things are inherent. It's not possible for them to be.
Click to expand...

Certainly there aren't any rights that cannot be taken away. But I think free will is a part of humanity, and certain rights or expectations go along with that. It is part of our genetic makeup to seek life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (for example). These things are genetically inherent. To abridge these rights is to abridge free will. And that can be done, but will always be objected to as long as humanity remains as it is.

Chuz Life said:
Are You saying our rights as recognized in the Declaraction of Independence is somehow contrary to those expressed in the Constitution?

If so,... how so?
Click to expand...

The Declaration of Independence says the rights are granted by a Creator. The Constitution doesn't recognize the Creator, the Declaration of Independence, or (specifically) the rights mentioned by it.
 
Last edited:
rivrrat said:
We are not born with [rights]. The mere fact that we MUST GRANT them only reiterates the fact that they are NOT INHERENT. If they were inherent, we wouldn't need to grant them and enumerate them in a document... We would all just be born with them and know what they are automatically.
Click to expand...

Chuz,

whether you believe in a creator or not the above holds true. Both theists and non-theists recognize this. The only difference might be is that some theists claim to know how God wants us to live. But that doesn't make it binding. It only means that God wants us to live and act a certain way. Not that such actions or ways of life are inherent.
 
Last edited:
Chuz Life said:
Are You saying our rights as recognized in the Declaraction of Independence is somehow contrary to those expressed in the Constitution?

If so,... how so?
Click to expand...

The DoI isn't our law, it's a declaration...of Independence. It's nice for some light supplemental reading, but it doesn't have all the necessary clauses and accouterments that are required to properly asses and execute the law. If you want to show what it's supplementing within the Constitution then by all means, enlighten me.
 
Ethereal said:
Rights are just a philosophical construct.
Click to expand...


I see,... so what right does my child or my wife or my neighbors , or YOU have,... to keep on living if it would be a convienience to me to keep you from doing so?
 
Yes! What other answer could there be?
 
Chuz Life said:
I see,... so what right does my child or my wife or my neighbors , or YOU have,..
Click to expand...
Rivrat has already answered this.

They come from nowhere but myself. I determine my rights by deciding what I want and defending what I want. As long as I can defend it, what I want is my right.

Unless of course my rights are granted to me by the country in which I reside. And then I get what THEY want to give me despite what I may want or what I feel is my 'right'. I can, of course, work to change their point of view as well. (hence the constant changes to the rights we have or don't have)
Click to expand...

to keep on living if it would be a convienience to me to keep you from doing so?
Click to expand...
Depending on the society you live in you may or may not be punished. In this society we punish most murderers.

God doesn't come down and punish people. People don't keel over and die after violating someones rights either.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom