View Poll Results: Does a new person's life "biologically" begin at conception?

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Thread: Does life biologically begin at conception?

  1. #181
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    fyi Re: Does life biologically begin at conception?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Contrary to what the Supreme Court may have said, this debate has never been about when life begins, but about when it is worth protecting and at what cost to a mother's liberty. The sentiment to that question has always changed and always will.
    That's an interesting take.

    But it seems you are responding to something other than the question posed in my poll.

  2. #182
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    Re: Does life biologically begin at conception?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    They are a philosophical concept, so, yes, you either agree with them or you don't, i.e., you believe negative individual liberties are the moral basis for society or you don't.



    That negative individual liberties should be the moral basis for society.
    You didn't previouslly ask if I agreed if negative individual liberties should be the basis of a society. You asked if I agreed with negative individual liberties. I can't 'agree' with something that just is, I can only agree or disagree with its application. So thank you for the clarification.

    Whether or not I agree or disagree if they should be the basis of a society is irrelevant to whether or not I believe that any rights are inherent in the absence of a society or governing body to grant and/or protect them.

    Do I think that the ideal 'An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will' should be the basis of a society? Of course. Any society that *I* want to be a part of, anyway. It's unfortunate that our society isn't as free as I'd like it to be, however.

  3. #183
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    Re: Does life biologically begin at conception?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    That's an interesting take.

    But it seems you are responding to something other than the question posed in my poll.
    Life never ended before it began. Embryos aren't created from dead sperm and eggs, they only come from living sperm and eggs. The question of whether "life" or "personhood" begins at a certain point is not a biological question because life can only come from life at this stage of evolution. It is a spiritual question of when whatever special spiritual entity or essence inhabits the human form. Historically, that answer has changed considerably with the sentiments and knowledge of people. The Catholic Church used to allow abortions all the way up to the "quickening" when the first movements of a fetus were felt. With the progression of science and the understanding of fertilization, the date was pushed back to conception. Although the sentiments behind that have always had political implications, such as increasing the procreation in order to establish a larger church membership and granting greater patriarchal power to husbands over their wives by limiting their reproductive rights.

    As such, if your question is when life biologically began, then the evidence indicates it began billions of years ago. The process of sexual conception isn't a beginning and end of that process, but only a continuance of it. It's an arbitrary question as it has no bearing on the spiritual implications of when a soul or spirit would inhabit a human form or when a person should guaranteed human rights.

  4. #184
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    Re: Does life biologically begin at conception?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    Your opinion is noted.

    Thanks
    Ethereal isn't giving an opinion. He isn't saying "I believe X is so": that is an opinion. He is saying that X is objectivly true. He is making a claim.

    Please provide evidence or reasoning that rights are not a philosophical construct. Or claim to be agnostic in regards to what rights fundamentally are..

    I doubt you have the humility or the integrity to face this challenge honestly.
    Last edited by scourge99; 12-22-09 at 04:25 PM.
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    Re: Does life biologically begin at conception?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarcho-fascist View Post
    A person's body begins at conception, yes.
    That doesn't mean their rights do.

    Fail.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Does life biologically begin at conception?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    You didn't previouslly ask if I agreed if negative individual liberties should be the basis of a society. You asked if I agreed with negative individual liberties. I can't 'agree' with something that just is, I can only agree or disagree with its application. So thank you for the clarification.

    Whether or not I agree or disagree if they should be the basis of a society is irrelevant to whether or not I believe that any rights are inherent in the absence of a society or governing body to grant and/or protect them.
    Does the absence of a society or governing body change the underlying morality of natural rights, though? For instance, a person hits you in the head with a shovel for no good reason; there are no laws, no society, no government; so, unless you're a nihilist (or someone with a very strange moral code), how could you contend that your moral claim (your right) to be left alone hasn't been violated? Why does society or government need to validate something inherent to all humans? The desire to live in accordance with one's will is uniform throughout humanity.

    Do I think that the ideal 'An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will' should be the basis of a society? Of course. Any society that *I* want to be a part of, anyway. It's unfortunate that our society isn't as free as I'd like it to be, however.
    Okay! Then you believe in the concept of natural rights. Natural rights theory isn't dependent upon "rights" physically existing in the same way a tree does; it's simply a moral commentary, one you apparently agree with.

  7. #187
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    Re: Does life biologically begin at conception?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Does the absence of a society or governing body change the underlying morality of natural rights, though? For instance, a person hits you in the head with a shovel for no good reason; there are no laws, no society, no government; so, unless you're a nihilist (or someone with a very strange moral code), how could you contend that your moral claim (your right) to be left alone hasn't been violated? Why does society or government need to validate something inherent to all humans? The desire to live in accordance with one's will is uniform throughout humanity.
    If I say I've been violated, then I have been. If I allow someone to hit me with a shovel, then apparently I don't feel violated. And as long as I allow them to do it, then I deserve it. Of course the desire to live with one's will is uniform throughout ALL animal life, not just humanity. That's just part of biology. Otherwise, we wouldn't move. We wouldn't eat. We wouldn't DO anything if we had no desire to do anything. That's not some 'natural right'. It's just biology.

    Every creature on this planet wishes to do what they want, and every creature wants to do something different. This is why there cannot be any "inherent" rights. They'd be different for every single individual creature on this planet, and they would change from one moment to the next. And, as long as each creature is able to what they want, that is their right to do so. As soon as something stops them, however, they no longer have that right. Said right only exists as long as they can prevent it from being taken away. The king of the pack has the right to all the females in the pack until a bigger, badder king comes and takes it away from him.

    Okay! Then you believe in the concept of natural rights. Natural rights theory isn't dependent upon "rights" physically existing in the same way a tree does; it's simply a moral commentary, one you apparently agree with.
    No, I don't believe in any rights that are inherent to every animal on the planet just by way of being born.

  8. #188
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    Re: Does life biologically begin at conception?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    From the "Compromise on abortion" thread;



    Does everyone agree with myself and Rivrrat that a new person's life "biologically" begins at the moment of their conception?

    Yes or no?
    The answer is YES!It is already a Human Beeing.
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  9. #189
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    Re: Does life biologically begin at conception?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfons View Post
    The answer is YES!It is already a Human Beeing.
    Human BEEing?


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    Re: Does life biologically begin at conception?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarcho-fascist View Post
    A person's body begins at conception, yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    That doesn't mean their rights do.

    Fail.
    I share Anarcho's claim (above) and I disagree completely with you (Cephus) on when a person's rights begin.

    You seem to agree that their body begins at conception.

    That body (however small and un-developed) is alive on some level.

    Agree so far?

    If you agree that it is alive,... who's life is it living if not it's own?

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