View Poll Results: Humanitarian intervention: who's framework?

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  • donsutherland1 - active genocide only

    1 11.11%
  • reefedjib - active subjugation of the people

    1 11.11%
  • other...

    7 77.78%
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Thread: Humanitarian intervention: who's framework?

  1. #11
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    Re: Humanitarian intervention: who's framework?

    I probably don't have a lot to add to this conversation. Military intervention for any cause except direct reprisal can be considered aggression, but I don't consider aggression to be illegitimate. If the conduct of one nation, whether within its own borders or otherwise, disturbs the citizens of another nation then the second nation is well within its rights to use its military to effect change.

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    Re: Humanitarian intervention: who's framework?

    Work behind the scenes to destablize and arm conflicting factions. Give more powerful weapons to the weak and give more money, and confidence, to the strong. Let their own inner demons eat away at them until finally...

    *snap*


    And it all goes ass up in a hurry. When most everyone's dead, dying, or weakened from the fighting, we take the side with the least amount of numbers and back them, build them up, give them absolute power and ensure they abuse it. Instill hatred for them from the now enslaved former enemy.


    Rinse and Repeat as necessary.




    Wait. were we trying to accomplish an end goal here? I just wanted to watch the place burn...

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    Re: Humanitarian intervention: who's framework?

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicDude86 View Post
    Wait. were we trying to accomplish an end goal here? I just wanted to watch the place burn...
    You can make a lot of money for your country if you play this game carefully. It's an investment of resources now, but your arms manufacturers, construction firms, and medical suppliers will see dividends in the long run.

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    Re: Humanitarian intervention: who's framework?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    You can make a lot of money for your country if you play this game carefully. It's an investment of resources now, but your arms manufacturers, construction firms, and medical suppliers will see dividends in the long run.
    Perpetual cycles, if maintained properly, do have quite a nice, constant yield...

  5. #15
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    Re: Humanitarian intervention: who's framework?

    You know whether other countries in the world want to admit it or not, and no matter their complaints when we act....there is an expectation that the US will...no should step up and bring justice where it needs to be. The method used to bring it, varies from situation to situation, but as the lone superpower and beacon of liberty, there is an expectation. And I think the US usually feels the pressure to do something.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Humanitarian intervention: who's framework?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    You know whether other countries in the world want to admit it or not, and no matter their complaints when we act....there is an expectation that the US will...no should step up and bring justice where it needs to be. The method used to bring it, varies from situation to situation, but as the lone superpower and beacon of liberty, there is an expectation. And I think the US usually feels the pressure to do something.
    We should let a few crazy despots take over, and let France handle it. See how much ass-kicking gets done then...

  7. #17
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    Re: Humanitarian intervention: who's framework?

    I don't think that a framework is really what you need to use for these situations. I think it is too dangerous for a country to box itself into a sealed idealogical construct regarding its use of force in humanitarian intervention. While we may feel morally obligated to respond to humanitarian crisis, economically it is not sound to respond to each and every instance, nor is it sound from a standpoint of having a fresh reserve ready for one's own national defense. Particularly when a country shoulders a vast majority of the operational burden alone.

    There are plenty of humanitarian crisis we could respond too. That we should respond to if we are to really believe in those so called human rights. But we cannot. The cost is simply too great for one nation alone to bear, both in money and in blood. But ignoring them is equally dangerous, as it allows caustic ideologies to spread their influence around the globe, creating greater humanitarian crisis.

    Unfortunantley, because of a lack of will to use force to uphold and spread the ideals of human rights by the majority of UN members, humanitarian crisis will continue on a smaller scale, and those ignored crisis will always be the rallying point for people who are against the next war that we fight. But rather than direct their ire towards non-involved nation-states, they will find fault with the US choice of battlefield.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Humanitarian intervention: who's framework?

    I totally agree with what WI Crippler has said. This thread was supposed to be about which framework defines justified conflicts, not that we would actually get involved in those conflicts necessarily - just that we could in clear conscience. Issues of National Interests for the state, available resources, and considerations of public will would all still apply to whether your state would get involved. It was my fault for not making that more clear.

    What I don't see is the moral argument for some of the other ideas mentioned in this thread.

  9. #19
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    Re: Humanitarian intervention: who's framework?

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    I don't think that a framework is really what you need to use for these situations. I think it is too dangerous for a country to box itself into a sealed idealogical construct regarding its use of force in humanitarian intervention.
    I agree on this point.

    Polling questions, due to how short the questions are, can lose nuance. The theoretical framework, from the way I understood it, offered guidance to some definitive cases where the use of military force would be legitimate. It was not intended to be all-inclusive. A sovereign state always needs to retain sufficient flexibility to safeguard or secure its interests and not every scenario is foreseeable.

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    Re: Humanitarian intervention: who's framework?

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler
    I don't think that a framework is really what you need to use for these situations. I think it is too dangerous for a country to box itself into a sealed idealogical construct regarding its use of force in humanitarian intervention.
    I agree on this point.

    Polling questions, due to how short the questions are, can lose nuance. The theoretical framework, from the way I understood it, offered guidance to some definitive cases where the use of military force would be legitimate. It was not intended to be all-inclusive. A sovereign state always needs to retain sufficient flexibility to safeguard or secure its interests and not every scenario is foreseeable.
    Don, this seems to be at stark odds with what you were representing previously:

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1
    The single humanitarian issue for which I believe it would be justified for a state to go to war concerns the ongoing act of genocide or credible and imminent threat of genocide, using the narrow definition provided in the Convention on Genocide.
    That sounds like a pretty all-inclusive statement to me.

    If it was not all-inclusive, then that would mean that given the right set of national interests, going to humanitarian intervention on the basis of subjugation might be reasonable. So you think Iraq war was justified?
    Last edited by reefedjib; 12-04-09 at 10:29 AM.

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