Shouldn't Adults Getting a College Education Pay for it Themselves?

RightinNYC said:

I understand that many private colleges are expensive, but we're talking about public schools. The average tuition at a public university is $7,020/year.

Michelle Singletary - The Color of Money: Getting a degree without going broke - washingtonpost.com

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How much are the expenses? Like books (I had a prof once that sold his book in his class) and food and beer?

winston53660 said:

How much are the expenses? Like books (I had a prof once that sold his book in his class) and food and beer?

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I usually spent around 4-700 on books each semester. Beyond that, all the other expenses are things that people would incur whether or not they were in school.

RightinNYC said:

Even if someone doesn't get a single penny from their family, has nothing saved up, and gets no financial aid from their school, they can earn cost of living + $7k/year by working any job out there. Furthermore, even if they don't want to work, they can take out loans to cover tuition + living.

Given that, how exactly would I be surprised?

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When education is so expensive that many students have to take out loans (meaning they can't pay for it on what they earn or received alone), then I find that a problem because it destroys the very incentive to seek higher learning. If a student can actually make an easier living working at McDonald's or waiting tables than they would if they were going to school to earn a degree (which might not even guarantee them a better paying job once they graduate, plus the expenses from the student loans), there isn't a huge amount of incentive to pursue college for many students (unless they have well-off families, huge scholarships, are extremely passionate about a particular subject or career, or are just planning on partying until they drop out).

For that matter, this creates less incentive to even care about high school. Since the main purpose of HS is to prepare students for college, if a student knows or assumes they will not be able to afford college, then where's the motivation to care about studying hard in HS? If all you're expecting is to work a low income job, then as long as you pass HS, even if you're at the bottom of your class, then all that's going to really matter to employers is your diploma or GED - not your grades, extra-circular activities, etc. And even a HS diploma isn't completely necessary just to get an low-income job.

If the govt is really interested in better educating Americans and creating better jobs, then I think the should invest in making public colleges more affordable to the average student. That is my opinion.

Toothpicvic said:

When education is so expensive that many students have to take out loans (meaning they can't pay for it on what they earn or received alone), then I find that a problem because it destroys the very incentive to seek higher learning. If a student can actually make an easier living working at McDonald's or waiting tables than they would if they were going to school to earn a degree (which might not even guarantee them a better paying job once they graduate, plus the expenses from the student loans), there isn't a huge amount of incentive to pursue college for many students (unless they have well-off families, huge scholarships, are extremely passionate about a particular subject or career, or are just planning on partying until they drop out).

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If a person can't comprehend that a 4-year degree will give them more career options than working at McDonalds, then it's not the money that's the problem.

The report titled "The Big Payoff: Educational Attainment and Synthetic Estimates of Work-Life Earnings" (.pdf) reveals that over an adult's working life, high school graduates can expect, on average, to earn $1.2 million; those with a bachelor's degree, $2.1 million

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Almost double the salary and half the unemployment rate.

For that matter, this creates less incentive to even care about high school. Since the main purpose of HS is to prepare students for college, if a student knows or assumes they will not be able to afford college, then where's the motivation to care about studying hard in HS? If all you're expecting is to work a low income job, then as long as you pass HS, even if you're at the bottom of your class, then all that's going to really matter to employers is your diploma or GED - not your grades, extra-circular activities, etc. And even a HS diploma isn't completely necessary just to get an low-income job.

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And if that person doesn't have the drive or the desire to put in anything more than minimal effort, then there's not much we as a society can do to help them.

If the govt is really interested in better educating Americans and creating better jobs, then I think the should invest in making public colleges more affordable to the average student. That is my opinion

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They're already quite affordable.

Kal'Stang said:

Depends on the particular issue. But your statement/question doesn't answer mine.

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This thread is about education....I threw in health care.
What is given is usually esteemed lightly, people should earn their education, that way they will recognize the value of it.

There is a clear distinction between "grade getters" and those who seek an education to learn first and obtain employment as a result of learning (as opposed to grades). This sort of human capital inefficiency is often ignored. However; the difference between private and public "screening" is ambiguous.

UtahBill said:

This thread is about education....I threw in health care.
What is given is usually esteemed lightly, people should earn their education, that way they will recognize the value of it.

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IMO an education is a right. Everyone should have the ability to learn whatever they want to learn regardless of monetary or social status.

While I do agree that usually anything given is "esteemed lightly" as you put it I don't think that this is always the case in education. I think a big part of the problem is a young persons perception of education. Especially when they are at that stage of "I know everything". Then later on in life they learn what an education is really worth...and unfortenately the opportunity (more often than not) for them to go to college has passed.

As for health care the only part that I think is a right is life saving medical care. Everything else should be earned.

Talk about a terrible poll.

Anyway, one thing to consider with college education is the benefits to society. If the benefits to others in society for each person educated exceed the costs to educate that person, we should do it. It would be like charging an additional tax of $500 in exchange for your salary going up $1000. Win-win all the way.

vvx said:

Talk about a terrible poll.

Anyway, one thing to consider with college education is the benefits to society. If the benefits to others in society for each person educated exceed the costs to educate that person, we should do it. It would be like charging an additional tax of $500 in exchange for your salary going up $1000. Win-win all the way.

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The question is: do people become educated in an attempt to learn or do they do so for the profit motive? If it is to get paid; it seems (at least to me) like a waste of resources. Do not get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with getting paid; it is when the majority of a university succumbs to this that drives education into a rut.

The "i dont give a **** i just want an A" attitude can be quite dangerous.

Kal'Stang said:

IMO an education is a right. Everyone should have the ability to learn whatever they want to learn regardless of monetary or social status.

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People do have the right to learn whatever they want - that's why we have libraries, free lectures, and the internet. However, they do not have the right to attend a university, enroll in classes, and avail themselves of the expertise of the professors and their fellow students without paying for those services.

RightinNYC said:

People do have the right to learn whatever they want - that's why we have libraries, free lectures, and the internet. However, they do not have the right to attend a university, enroll in classes, and avail themselves of the expertise of the professors and their fellow students without paying for those services.

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Unfortenately you can't get a degree by attending free lectures or going to libraries or reading from the internet. Remember people that do learn in those ways can't help in the areas that they learn if no one will hire them because they don't have a piece of paper saying that they know something of the field from some accredited university or college.

People now a days look for that piece of paper, and if a person doesn't have that piece of paper then they are laughed away...regardless of weather or not what they bring to the table is valid. Indeed those people can't even get through the doors to get a first interview, much less get hired.

Which means that all that studying that the person does is wasted for society as a whole.

Wouldn't it be ironic and stupid to not hire someone and thereby not making resources available to a person that could have solved the HIV/AIDS problem just because they didn't have that piece of paper?

People are right in saying that we as a society have become too capitalistic. I would posit that while people as individuals do have rights...society as a whole has rights also. Does individual rights trump societies rights? Or visa versa? Or is there a middle ground that can be accomplished?

Kal'Stang said:

Unfortenately you can't get a degree by attending free lectures or going to libraries or reading from the internet. Remember people that do learn in those ways can't help in the areas that they learn if no one will hire them because they don't have a piece of paper saying that they know something of the field from some accredited university or college.

People now a days look for that piece of paper, and if a person doesn't have that piece of paper then they are laughed away...regardless of weather or not what they bring to the table is valid. Indeed those people can't even get through the doors to get a first interview, much less get hired.

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So people should have the right to attend universities for free? I think that's a bit ridiculous - you have to charge them something so that they have a vested interest in using the resources properly. I think we've already achieved a good middle ground with the creation of public universities in every single state that offer 4-year degrees at a highly affordable cost.

Wouldn't it be ironic and stupid to not hire someone and thereby not making resources available to a person that could have solved the HIV/AIDS problem just because they didn't have that piece of paper?

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I don't think I'm being too harsh in saying that there's no way on earth that someone who does not have the motivation and intelligence to attend college is going to be able to cure AIDS.

People are right in saying that we as a society have become too capitalistic. I would posit that while people as individuals do have rights...society as a whole has rights also. Does individual rights trump societies rights? Or visa versa? Or is there a middle ground that can be accomplished?

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Of course - it's called heavily subsidized public education. It's absolutely free for 13 years and then available at below market rates for the next 4-10.

Kal'Stang said:

Unfortenately you can't get a degree by attending free lectures or going to libraries or reading from the internet. Remember people that do learn in those ways can't help in the areas that they learn if no one will hire them because they don't have a piece of paper saying that they know something of the field from some accredited university or college.

People now a days look for that piece of paper, and if a person doesn't have that piece of paper then they are laughed away...regardless of weather or not what they bring to the table is valid. Indeed those people can't even get through the doors to get a first interview, much less get hired.

Which means that all that studying that the person does is wasted for society as a whole.

Wouldn't it be ironic and stupid to not hire someone and thereby not making resources available to a person that could have solved the HIV/AIDS problem just because they didn't have that piece of paper?

People are right in saying that we as a society have become too capitalistic. I would posit that while people as individuals do have rights...society as a whole has rights also. Does individual rights trump societies rights? Or visa versa? Or is there a middle ground that can be accomplished?

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I know a few very intelligent people who never attended college, and they work as engineers developing equipment to serve various needs.
SOME people are just really smart....

RightinNYC said:

So people should have the right to attend universities for free? I think that's a bit ridiculous - you have to charge them something so that they have a vested interest in using the resources properly. I think we've already achieved a good middle ground with the creation of public universities in every single state that offer 4-year degrees at a highly affordable cost.

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I never said "free". But I do believe that the pathway to universities/colleges should be made easier. That doesn't have to mean free. Heck they could even keep the prices that they are charging now. In most cases it is the payments that make going prohibitive. Especially when you pay 500-1000 dollars in rent. Pay electric bill, phone bill etc etc. You might think that it's easy to get $7.5k but reality shows that this is not so for those that make minimum wage and try to provide for a family.

RightinNYC said:

I don't think I'm being too harsh in saying that there's no way on earth that someone who does not have the motivation and intelligence to attend college is going to be able to cure AIDS.

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Why not? You try to make it sound like all you need is motivation to attend college. There are many things that prevent even those that are motivated from getting a loan to attend college...or saving up money to do so.

RightinNYC said:

Of course - it's called heavily subsidized public education. It's absolutely free for 13 years and then available at below market rates for the next 4-10.

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Free? How is it free?

Kal'Stang said:

I never said "free". But I do believe that the pathway to universities/colleges should be made easier. That doesn't have to mean free. Heck they could even keep the prices that they are charging now. In most cases it is the payments that make going prohibitive. Especially when you pay 500-1000 dollars in rent. Pay electric bill, phone bill etc etc. You might think that it's easy to get $7.5k but reality shows that this is not so for those that make minimum wage and try to provide for a family.

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I'm sorry, are we supposed to feel sympathy for people who were so foolish as to *START* a family while making minimum wage? There's this thing called personal responsibility, maybe you've heard of it, where people need to take responsibility for their actions and not do stupid things that are potentially life-ruining because you're not ready for them.

Cephus said:

I'm sorry, are we supposed to feel sympathy for people who were so foolish as to *START* a family while making minimum wage? There's this thing called personal responsibility, maybe you've heard of it, where people need to take responsibility for their actions and not do stupid things that are potentially life-ruining because you're not ready for them.

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Amen....

We told our kids that we would pay for their college, and that if they found someone they wanted to marry before graduation, that is OK. BUT, no kids til they graduate and/or get a job with medical benefits....cuz we ain't paying for THAT...:2wave:

Cephus said:

I'm sorry, are we supposed to feel sympathy for people who were so foolish as to *START* a family while making minimum wage? There's this thing called personal responsibility, maybe you've heard of it, where people need to take responsibility for their actions and not do stupid things that are potentially life-ruining because you're not ready for them.

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So are you saying that people that make minimum wage shouldn't start a family?

Kal'Stang said:

So are you saying that people that make minimum wage shouldn't start a family?

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Yeah, pretty much. If you can't afford it, don't breed. Seems logical.

Kal'Stang said:

So are you saying that people that make minimum wage shouldn't start a family?

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Condoms are only about $50 piece. No big deal unless you live in a state like Texas which teaches 'abstinence only' education in HS (and consequently, has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the US, along with the highest HS dropout rate).

RightinNYC said:

If a person can't comprehend that a 4-year degree will give them more career options than working at McDonalds, then it's not the money that's the problem.

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What I meant is that, for a lot students it can be more affordable just to work full time right out of HS because of sky-high college admissions, than it would be to work full time at McDonald's.

Kal'Stang said:

I never said "free". But I do believe that the pathway to universities/colleges should be made easier. That doesn't have to mean free. Heck they could even keep the prices that they are charging now. In most cases it is the payments that make going prohibitive. Especially when you pay 500-1000 dollars in rent. Pay electric bill, phone bill etc etc. You might think that it's easy to get $7.5k but reality shows that this is not so for those that make minimum wage and try to provide for a family.

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And they're going to have to make every one of those other payments regardless of whether they attend college or not.

Look at it this way: Even if the person only makes barely enough money to survive, they can take out the entire cost of their tuition in guaranteed federal loans. How is the up front cost preventing them from doing anything?

I'm not even going to get into the children issue, because that doesn't change anything - they should be supporting them anyways. If they can't, then tough **** - you don't have the "right" to start making kids at 17, not work, and then expect someone else to pay for your kids and college. For those that are motivated, they can overcome this.

Why not? You try to make it sound like all you need is motivation to attend college. There are many things that prevent even those that are motivated from getting a loan to attend college...or saving up money to do so.

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Like what? Again, they don't even need to save up - they can take it all out in loans.

Free? How is it free?

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Your first 13 years of public education (K-12) is completely free, with the $110,000 price tag being picked up by the government. After that, it's heavily subsidized should you choose to attend a state school. I think that's plenty generous.

Toothpicvic said:

Condoms are only about $50 piece. No big deal unless you live in a state like Texas which teaches 'abstinence only' education in HS (and consequently, has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the US, along with the highest HS dropout rate).

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And if you attend college, the condoms are free. More savings!

Toothpicvic said:

What I meant is that, for a lot students it can be more affordable just to work full time right out of HS because of sky-high college admissions, than it would be to work full time at McDonald's.

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The fact that it might seem more affordable up front doesn't mean that it's not an absolutely idiotic decision.

Again, if a kid is too stupid to compare average salaries for a HS grad and a college grad and realize that he might be better served by biting the bullet and taking out some loans and forgoing salary for a few years, then that kid should not be attending college anyways.

RightinNYC said:

And they're going to have to make every one of those other payments regardless of whether they attend college or not.

Look at it this way: Even if the person only makes barely enough money to survive, they can take out the entire cost of their tuition in guaranteed federal loans. How is the up front cost preventing them from doing anything?

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You need credit or someone to co-sign to get any loan. I've tried to apply for a loan 3 times in the past 4 years. I've been turned down every single time because I do not have the credit nor have a co-signer.

RightinNYC said:

I'm not even going to get into the children issue, because that doesn't change anything - they should be supporting them anyways. If they can't, then tough **** - you don't have the "right" to start making kids at 17, not work, and then expect someone else to pay for your kids and college. For those that are motivated, they can overcome this.

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Who said anything about "not working" or having kids at 17? I'm 34 years old and would like to go to college. I've got 2 kids and a wife and we are barely making our bills. What do I do?

RightinNYC said:

Like what? Again, they don't even need to save up - they can take it all out in loans.

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Again, not everyone is qualified for a loan.

RightinNYC said:

Your first 13 years of public education (K-12) is completely free, with the $110,000 price tag being picked up by the government. After that, it's heavily subsidized should you choose to attend a state school. I think that's plenty generous.

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Do you seriously think that no citizen pays for public education? I pay a land tax that helps support our schools every 6 months.

Cephus said:

Yeah, pretty much. If you can't afford it, don't breed. Seems logical.

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Wow..what an ignorant statement.

Wow..what an ignorant statement.

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How is it ignorant? You believe that people should have kids before they are ready to actually take care of them and provide for them?

Korimyr the Rat said:

Another marvelously impartial poll.

An educated workforce is essentially to the productivity of the nation. If government programs assist in the creation and maintenance of such a workforce, they are worthwhile. Adults whose college education would benefit the State should be subsidized if necessary, much as their secondary school education is subsidized. Of course, this benefits their families as well, and much as families have an obligation to support their young adults in secondary school, they should be expected to bear as large a portion of the cost of college as they are practically capable.

The problem is that, much as we have assumed a secondary school education as a universal right, we are beginning to treat a college education as a right that students should enjoy regardless of their ability to complete and benefit from it. We need to return to the cultural assumption that young men and women should be expected to enter the workforce at the level of education or vocational training that they are suited to.

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Adults whose college education would benefit the State should be subsidized if necessary

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We are not trying to benefit the State. The state has no money to give. State money is my money and your money that it took from us. It is the money of the people.

Now unless you are personally willing to financially undergird the education of strangers then it makes no sense for you to support the State paying for it. Unless, that is, you contribute little to the government due to poverty and just expect other wealthy people to undertake the financial burden of educating strangers.

If there were a program outside of social essentials that tax money should go to, however, I think that it should be this one. It certainly is more beneficial to all of us than government run universal healthcare, etc...