Should US Merchant Ships Be Armed?

Blackdog · 11-20-09, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manc Skipper

Modern day merchant ships are geared up for maximum profit at minimum cost. That includes crew number, course, and speed. If the crew had wanted to sign on for a fight, they would have joined a navy.

Irrelevant.

If the ship needs defending, it needs defending.

I guess everyone wants to be a victim?

Goshin · 11-20-09, 08:36 PM

We always seem to run into this strange notion that is takes Navy-Seal-level training to use weapons and fight in defense of one's self or one's ship.

It doesn't.

I train people to use weapons as a side biz. Give me the crew for three days and they will be able to repel 90% of pirate attacks with proper arms.

Yeah, it is a skill, but on a basic level it isn't rocket science folks.

I say arm our merchants.

G.

Korimyr the Rat · 11-20-09, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manc Skipper

Modern day merchant ships are geared up for maximum profit at minimum cost. That includes crew number, course, and speed. If the crew had wanted to sign on for a fight, they would have joined a navy.

Heh. Not everyone who likes to get a little blood in their teeth wants, or is allowed, to join their nation's military.

earthworm · 11-20-09, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar

What abuse?

You think merchant ships are going to play games with US destroyers, when those destroyers have orders to defend themselves? How much damage do you think some terrorists are going to do to a destroyer using machine guns and grenades, compared to the devastating response of naval gunnery and cruise missiles?

You people are aware that the problem is that the navies of the world aren't big enough to scrub the sea free of these cockroaches, right? And that the essential element of self-defense is being prepared and able to shoot back when attacked, right?

Scenario:

A thirty foot boat with a speed of 60 knots is detected approaching a container ship with a max speed of 15 knots. Time of closest approach is 15 minutes, time of rendezvous with any naval vessel is estimated to be no less than six hours.

Women should be allowed to carry guns to prevent rape.
Men should be allowed to carry guns to prevent mugging.
Ships should be allowed to carry guns to prevent piracy.

That's what's historically proven to work, and there's no moral burden on allowing a man to carry the tools to defending himself, since they do him no good if they're on another ship that isn't there.

As a general rule, the people who get shot at by the defending ship are pirates intent on killing the crew or kidnapping them.

So the crew shoots and kills the pirates.

What's the big deal, besides the fact that the ship saved some taxpayers the cost of a trial?

Why are you people interested in protecting pirates?

Here, I agree with the Scarecrow 100%.
Here in America we have hundreds of combat trained men who will not make the military their career, but do need the work.

Blackdog · 11-20-09, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goshin

We always seem to run into this strange notion that is takes Navy-Seal-level training to use weapons and fight in defense of one's self or one's ship.

It doesn't.

I train people to use weapons as a side biz. Give me the crew for three days and they will be able to repel 90% of pirate attacks with proper arms.

Yeah, it is a skill, but on a basic level it isn't rocket science folks.

I say arm our merchants.

G.

When the Zombie apocalypse happens, I want Goshin on my team.

OK back to the topic at hand.

Agree 100%.

DeeJayH · 11-20-09, 09:50 PM

I like those sonic weapons as a viable alternative to lethal, among other alternatives

molten_dragon · 11-21-09, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar

You making a career out of deliberately missing the point of any discussion you join?

No need to be a dick. If I missed the point it wasn't deliberate.

From what I could find, there is no overall international law that prevents merchant ships from being armed, only national laws that prevent armed ships from entering certain ports.

So what exactly was your point?

PeteEU · 11-21-09, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar

Well, should international law allow merchant ships to carry small arms, up to and including RPG's or similar weapons sufficient to repel pirates attacking from small craft?

First off.. The article is out right lieing...

Quote:

Pirates successfully attacked another unarmed ship on Monday, leaving 28 members of its crew dead.

Never happened. What did happen was they took a North Korean ship with 28 crew hostage. No one died.

And they miss name the company.... Its called Maersk Line, not Maersk Shipping Line.

Guess the right wing moonie paper cant pay for fact checkers...

On the subject you put up.

Putting armed guards on merchant shipping is not new and should be done in pirate infested waters.

But on the flip side it will cost lives, both pirate, crew and guards. The only lives lost so far in the area have been when rescue attempts have been made or the naval forces have fired on the wrong ships or the pirates have attacked armed ships. Considering the amount of ships hijacked and the amount of ships needing to go through the area then it is surprising few deaths. Arming the ships will increase the deaths considerably on all sides.

And that is when the insurance companies and bean counters come into the picture and I have doubts that small companies will be able to afford the premiums. Mærsk will have no problems, and I bet they could get the US government to pay for it, but fishermen, other nations cargo ships and so on.. would be very hard.

And then there is the issue of having ports accept armed ships, and the sovereignty issue, not to mention the legal issue involved if the armed guards make a mistake.

On top of that you have the issue.. what laws should be followed.. the flag of the ship or the owner of the ship when it comes to legal issues related to fighting off pirates. In Mærsk Alabama's case it could be a mine field, since the ship is registered in the US (under US flag) but owned by a Danish company..

Sadly it is not as cut and dry as many would like including me.

Ockham · 11-21-09, 07:19 AM

A few .50 cal deck guns would be the best deterrent, with some small arms on board such as M4, M240B, and hand guns only handed out when there's a need - as well as defensive netting and constant training with those weapons and how to guide the ship to defensively to avoid a boarding. I think those things would make modern piracy very difficult to impossible.

Kal'Stang · 11-21-09, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molten_dragon

I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to. It's their decision whether it's more important to be armed to deal with pirates or to be able to enter ports that don't allow armed ships.

If every ship started to carry arms I would bet those particular ports would start allowing it...or lose business.

11-20-09, 08:36 PM	#22
Goshin Bigger Hammer Join Date: Mar 2009 Last Seen: Today 07:36 PM Location: Dixie Posts: 3,699 Thanks: 3,753 Thanked 3,108 Times in 1,494 Posts Lean: Independent Gender:	Re: Should US Merchant Ships Be Armed? We always seem to run into this strange notion that is takes Navy-Seal-level training to use weapons and fight in defense of one's self or one's ship. It doesn't. I train people to use weapons as a side biz. Give me the crew for three days and they will be able to repel 90% of pirate attacks with proper arms. Yeah, it is a skill, but on a basic level it isn't rocket science folks. I say arm our merchants. G.
	__________________ The "slippery slope fallacy" does not apply if the slope is greased and you're being pushed. Luke 22:36 ...he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. .

11-21-09, 07:19 AM	#29
Ockham Educator Join Date: Oct 2009 Last Seen: Today 06:55 PM Location: New Jersey Posts: 991 Thanks: 146 Thanked 344 Times in 226 Posts Lean: Conservative Gender: Total Awards: 1	Re: Should US Merchant Ships Be Armed? A few .50 cal deck guns would be the best deterrent, with some small arms on board such as M4, M240B, and hand guns only handed out when there's a need - as well as defensive netting and constant training with those weapons and how to guide the ship to defensively to avoid a boarding. I think those things would make modern piracy very difficult to impossible.
	__________________ What am I listening to RSS Brawndo has what plants crave, it's got electrolytes.

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