View Poll Results: Do you support single-payer health care?

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  • Yes

    50 45.87%
  • No

    53 48.62%
  • Maybe, if

    6 5.50%
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Thread: Do you support single-payer health care?

  1. #241
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    You repeat yourself all the time, what's your point?
    That restating your position does nothing to counter the argument against it.

    (looking closer, you stated the same thing in two different topics. whcih is why I made the statement of you repeating yourself)

    It must be nice to think that your opinions carry the weight of fact. The fact that we have a right to life rises from a set of group morals.
    Show this to be true.
    Where in the statement of morality, direct or supporting, in:

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men....
    Ah, okay, so it's okay to impose your morals on others in some situations, but not in others. Glad to see you're at least consistent.
    I didn't say it was OK in any situation.

    YOU. on the other hand, will say that is is OK in some situations, and not in others, based on the morality in question.
    That is, it is OK when you agree with it, and it is NOT OK when you do not.

  2. #242
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    That restating your position does nothing to counter the argument against it.

    (looking closer, you stated the same thing in two different topics. whcih is why I made the statement of you repeating yourself)
    You've done the same thing repeatedly in the short time I've been on these forums. Maybe you should practice what you preach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Show this to be true.
    Where in the statement of morality, direct or supporting, in:
    After thinking on it some, I've come to the conclusion that you're partially right. I suppose the issue doesn't have so much to do with right and wrong, but more to do with beliefs. So 'Morals' probably isn't the best word for it, 'Beliefs' is probably better. The founding fathers believed that we were all created equal, and that we have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and enough people agreed with them that the enforcement of those beliefs was imposed upon everyone.

    So yes, it's perfectly okay to attempt to impose the consequences of my beliefs on others. And if I can get enough people to agree with me, I will. That's how democracy works.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  3. #243
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    You've done the same thing repeatedly in the short time I've been on these forums. Maybe you should practice what you preach.
    So you're not going to counter the argument against your statement, and isntead let that argument stand. Works for me.

    After thinking on it some, I've come to the conclusion that you're partially right.
    Thank you. Partly.

    I suppose the issue doesn't have so much to do with right and wrong, but more to do with beliefs. So 'Morals' probably isn't the best word for it, 'Beliefs' is probably better. The founding fathers believed that we were all created equal, and that we have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and enough people agreed with them that the enforcement of those beliefs was imposed upon everyone.

    So yes, it's perfectly okay to attempt to impose the consequences of my beliefs on others
    Thats fine, as far as it goes, but these beiliefs were not simply made up or taken up because they sounded or felt good -- they're basd on soiund reasoning. You can belive what you want -- can you put together a rational basis for it?

    If not, then you may recall that faith in God is a belief, and as such a similarly acceptable basis upon which to create and enact public policy

    And if I can get enough people to agree with me, I will. That's how democracy works.
    Somehow, I'm pretty sure you;d take exception to that, if the cirumstances were different (see above). If I can get enough people to agree, then you'll have no objection to the impositions of the dicttaes of the Vatican - right?

  4. #244
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Thats fine, as far as it goes, but these beiliefs were not simply made up or taken up because they sounded or felt good -- they're basd on soiund reasoning. You can belive what you want -- can you put together a rational basis for it?

    If not, then you may recall that faith in God is a belief, and as such a similarly acceptable basis upon which to create and enact public policy
    Plenty of politicians try to pass laws based on their religious beliefs. Some are successful (laws against gay marriage being one of the most recent examples). I've voted against such laws, but in some cases the majority votes for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Somehow, I'm pretty sure you;d take exception to that, if the cirumstances were different (see above). If I can get enough people to agree, then you'll have no objection to the impositions of the dicttaes of the Vatican - right?
    I'd have a lot of objection to the dictates of the Vatican, and I'd do everything in my power to prevent such a law from being passed. But if enough people agreed with you it would happen anyway, and I'd either deal with it or leave. That's just the way it works in America.

    I'm not saying you don't have the right to fight against my beliefs being imposed upon you. I'm just saying that if enough people agree with me, we have the right to impose them regardless.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  5. #245
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Plenty of politicians try to pass laws based on their religious beliefs. Some are successful (laws against gay marriage being one of the most recent examples). I've voted against such laws, but in some cases the majority votes for them.
    So you agree that 'its by belief' isnt a particularly strong argument for the imposition of same onto others.

    I'd have a lot of objection to the dictates of the Vatican, and I'd do everything in my power to prevent such a law from being passed. But if enough people agreed with you it would happen anyway, and I'd either deal with it or leave. That's just the way it works in America.

    I'm not saying you don't have the right to fight against my beliefs being imposed upon you. I'm just saying that if enough people agree with me, we have the right to impose them regardless.
    Might makes right. Gotcha.

  6. #246
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Might makes right. Gotcha.
    Not might, majority. That's how a democracy works.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  7. #247
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Not might, majority. That's how a democracy works.
    No difference.

    Plenty of politicians try to pass laws based on their religious beliefs. Some are successful (laws against gay marriage being one of the most recent examples). I've voted against such laws, but in some cases the majority votes for them.
    So you agree that 'its by belief' isnt a particularly strong argument for the imposition of same onto others.

  8. #248
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Isn't that the basic function of our government when you get right down to it? The creation and enforcement of a set of group-determined common morals?
    No, it is not.

    The government is not supposed to regulate morality. That is a misnomer. The government is supposed to regulate conduct and make laws that govern the populace.

    The government is supposed to approach this process from a neutral stand point. Herein lies the problem. The government is filled with right wing zealots who want to make laws according to their religious indoctrination.

    This is unacceptable. They must be forced to check their religious beliefs at the door or they must be removed from the government.

  9. #249
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Judge Napolitano sums it up nicely, “Everything is government runs is bankrupt.” I think Judge Napolitano should have added; government involvement (industry or service) equals higher prices and lower quality.
    We need to get back to paying for basic medical services (the free-market will keep prices down and quality high) and only using insurance for the major illnesses and accidents.
    'The whole universe is going to die!'

  10. #250
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    We need to get back to paying for basic medical services (the free-market will keep prices down and quality high) and only using insurance for the major illnesses and accidents.
    That only works if there aren't external forces working to keep prices high like there are now. Shyster lawyers and the insurance industry which only pays 10%, on average, of the actual cost of services, both conspire to push the costs sky high in order for the medical industry to stay in business, yet nobody wants to touch these two sacred cows in the overhaul of health care.

    So long as they're allowed to run rampant without anyone reigning them in, we'll never have a system that the free market can actually work on.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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