View Poll Results: Do you support single-payer health care?

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  • Yes

    50 45.87%
  • No

    53 48.62%
  • Maybe, if

    6 5.50%
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Thread: Do you support single-payer health care?

  1. #161
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    I don't think you know what the word explicit means. Had it been explicit, there would have been a clearly worded statement that the 16 powers expressed are the only powers congress can spend revenue on. Since there is no such statement, it is not explicit. A lack of a statement to the contrary is not explicit.
    Great argument.

    Too bad the Constitution is only one sentence and semi-colons to divide the clauses in Art1Sect8, isn't it? It wrecks your whole argument.

    Those semi-colons link the beginning of the sentence to the ending, which is

    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

    The phrase "foregoing powers" gives you people no weasel room, nor does "all other Powers vested by this Constitution".

    It says, quite plainly, that those listed powers are not only THE powers Congress has, but ONLY the powers Congress has.

    And, to ice the cake, the Tenth Amendment makes that perfectly plain that if it's not specifically listed as a power reserved to the federal government, the federal government DOES NOT have that power.

    Period.

    Fini.

    End of Play.

    Listen to the fat lady singing.


    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Then I should have been more clear. Your position that there is no ambiguity in -this- regard is either hopelessly naive, simply ignorant, or willfully dishonest.
    Then I'll make it perfectly clear.

    Your desire to invent ambiguity where none exists is merely an expression of your desire to impose illegal social programs on a formerly free people.
    Last edited by Scarecrow Akhbar; 11-19-09 at 08:27 PM.

  2. #162
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Great argument.

    Too bad the Constitution is only one sentence and semi-colons to divide the clauses in Art1Sect8, isn't it? It wrecks your whole argument.

    Those semi-colons link the beginning of the sentence to the ending, which is

    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

    The phrase "foregoing powers" gives you people no weasel room, nor does "all other Powers vested by this Constitution".

    It says, quite plainly, that those listed powers are not only THE powers Congress has, but ONLY the powers Congress has.

    And, to ice the cake, the Tenth Amendment makes that perfectly plain that if it's not specifically listed as a power reserved to the federal government, the federal government DOES NOT have that power.

    Period.

    Fini.

    End of Play.

    Listen to the fat lady singing.
    Obviously, you don't know what explicit means either.

    It's pretty sad when the best argument you can come up with for your position is to argue punctuation marks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Then I'll make it perfectly clear.

    Your desire to invent ambiguity where none exists is merely an expression of your desire to impose illegal social programs on a formerly free people.
    I'm inventing nothing. I'm simply not blinding myself to what's there because it doesn't agree with my personal ideology.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  3. #163
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    If an explicit list of powers was not desired, the Founders would not have included both a specific list of powers AND added the Tenth Amendment.

    Since Congress is not specifically granted the power to steal the nation's health care industry, it doesn't have the lawful power to do so, and all attempts for such are by definition unlawful.
    Does the Constitution grant Congress authority to establish a bank?

  4. #164
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    If an explicit list of powers was not desired, the Founders would not have included both a specific list of powers AND added the Tenth Amendment.
    The Tenth Amendment would not stop the exercise of the implicit power in the General Welfare Clause.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Since Congress is not specifically granted the power to steal the nation's health care industry, it doesn't have the lawful power to do so, and all attempts for such are by definition unlawful.
    You are basing that statement on an interpretation of the ambiguous General Welfare Clause and case law is against you.
    Last edited by reefedjib; 11-19-09 at 09:25 PM.

  5. #165
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    You are basing that statement on an ambiguous interpretation of the General Welfare Clause and case law is against you.
    I thought it was the clause that was ambiguous.

  6. #166
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Whip Comes Down View Post
    I thought it was the clause that was ambiguous.
    True enough. thx

  7. #167
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    You forgot to add "Hell, No!!"
    An Enlightened Master is ideal only if your goal is to become a Benighted Slave. -- Robert Anton Wilson

  8. #168
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    You have not shown that your argument is not an appeal to authority.
    Show that it is. What 'authority' am I basing my argument on?

    Then why the conservative litmus test of strict constructionist?
    Same reasons the liberals have one of the opposite.
    But, that's irrelevant -- regardless of any such tests, the fact remains that judges are not supposed to rule based on their political and personal desires.

  9. #169
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    And your assumption that it does not has been addressed as well, it's either naive, ignorant, or dishonest.
    No more so than your adherece to the idea that there -is- ambiguity.

    I don't think you know what the word explicit means. Had it been explicit, there would have been a clearly worded statement that the 16 powers expressed are the only powers congress can spend revenue on. Since there is no such statement, it is not explicit. A lack of a statement to the contrary is not explicit.
    I see you did not comment on the purpose of the clarification. Do you agree or disagree?

    This has been explained to you. You may choose to ignore the explanation, but the explanation stands. If a contact gives you a list of powers/rights in a contract, and there is a statement in that contract that powers not listed are otherwise held, there's no way to argue that you have powers/rights not listed in the contract.

    You're right. I'm not exactly sure why the different stances from him. Where did you pull the quote from him from? I'd be interested in seeing whether reading more of it would explain the differences of opinion
    Thank you.
    I believe it wa federalist 33. One of them in that area. I hav since closed the link. I apologize for not including it as a cite.

    Hamilton's inconsistencies aside (assuming they exist, and the quote was not taken out of context), the ambiguity is very much there...
    The 'ambiguity' is based on Hamilton's comments.
    If his comments are inconsistent -- he argues one way and then the other -- then Hamilton's comments are useless; any argument based on them is unsound -- including the interpertation of the 'general welfare' clause.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 11-20-09 at 01:08 PM.

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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Furthermore, it is perfectly legitimate to say that an explicit list of powers was seen as undesired as evidenced by the removal of the phrase "expressly delegated" powers phrase from the AoC. Otherwise they would have restricted it as they were very careful to do this in other places.
    Again:

    If a contract gives you a list of powers/rights in a contract, and there is a statement in that contract that powers not listed are otherwise held, there's no way to argue that you have powers/rights not listed in the contract.

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