View Poll Results: Do you support single-payer health care?

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  • Yes

    50 45.87%
  • No

    53 48.62%
  • Maybe, if

    6 5.50%
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Thread: Do you support single-payer health care?

  1. #111
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    A single payer system isn't a takeover?
    What single payer system, boo?

  2. #112
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Whip Comes Down View Post
    What single payer system, boo?
    The one that this thread was originally about.

    The title is "Do you support single-payer health care"
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  3. #113
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypostrategos View Post
    No. People need to earn what they receive, nobody should be paying for anyone else's health care, unless they voluntarily do so.
    A simple and poor society can exist as a democracy on a basis of sheer individualism. But a rich and complex industrial society cannot.

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  4. #114
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes. That's what I responded to. Not sure why you feel the need to repeat it, or why you think repeating it changes anything.

    I'll copy and paste my ressponse yet again:

    -The clause you cite gives the power to tax (and spend)
    -It does NOT grant the power to create programs that provide for the common defense or the general welfare -- the clauses found in the remainder of the section do this.
    actually it seems it does grant the power to create programs that provide for the common defense or the general welfare...
    The two primary authors of the Federalist Papers essays set forth two separate, conflicting theories:

    the narrower view of James Madison that spending must be at least tangentially tied to one of the other specifically enumerated powers, such as regulating interstate or foreign commerce, or providing for the military, as the General Welfare Clause is not a specific grant of power, but a statement of purpose qualifying the power to tax; and

    the broader view of Alexander Hamilton that spending is an enumerated power that Congress may exercise independently to benefit the general welfare, such as to assist national needs in agriculture or education, provided that the spending is general in nature and does not favor any specific section of the country over any other.
    at least under the Hamiltonian view:

    To date, the Hamiltonian view of the General Welfare Clause predominates in case law.
    Alexander Hamilton, Report on Manufactures

    the power to raise money is plenary, and indefinite; and the objects to which it may be appropriated are no less comprehensive, than the payment of the public debts and the providing for the common defence and "general Welfare." The terms "general Welfare" were doubtless intended to signify more than was expressed or imported in those which Preceded; otherwise numerous exigencies incident to the affairs of a Nation would have been left without a provision. The phrase is as comprehensive as any that could have been used; because it was not fit that the constitutional authority of the Union, to appropriate its revenues shou'd have been restricted within narrower limits than the "General Welfare" and because this necessarily embraces a vast variety of particulars, which are susceptible neither of specification nor of definition.

    It is therefore of necessity left to the discretion of the National Legislature, to pronounce, upon the objects, which concern the general Welfare, and for which under that description, an appropriation of money is requisite and proper. And there seems to be no room for a doubt that whatever concerns the general Interests of learning of Agriculture of Manufactures and of Commerce are within the sphere of the national Councils as far as regards an application of Money.

    The only qualification of the generallity of the Phrase in question, which seems to be admissible, is this--That the object to which an appropriation of money is to be made be General and not local; its operation extending in fact, or by possibility, throughout the Union, and not being confined to a particular spot.

    No objection ought to arise to this construction from a supposition that it would imply a power to do whatever else should appear to Congress conducive to the General Welfare. A power to appropriate money with this latitude which is granted too in express terms would not carry a power to do any other thing, not authorised in the constitution, either expressly or by fair implication.
    Last edited by reefedjib; 11-18-09 at 07:38 PM.

  5. #115
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Eliminating the opinionated hogwash;

    Article 1 section 8 (the part i was citing) grants government the power to tax and spend, not simply to tax.

    From wiki:

    Taxing and Spending Clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Article 1 Section 8 grants Congress the authority to spend on the enumerated powers only.

    Health care, socialist security, education, energy, farm subsidies, baseball,....none of those are enumerated in Art. 1 Sect. 8.

  6. #116
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Article 1 Section 8 grants Congress the authority to spend on the enumerated powers only.

    Health care, socialist security, education, energy, farm subsidies, baseball,....none of those are enumerated in Art. 1 Sect. 8.
    This is not true, as I show in my post above (http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1058374255).

    It is not enumerated, it is up to the legislature to decide. The way this will work is that the legislature will pass legislation spending tax dollars. People that don't like this will bring a suit against and try to get it to the Supreme Court. If the SC hears the case, this argument will be attempted, that it is not an enumerated power. The SC will reject this argument based on prior case law and their interpretation of the "General Welfare" being met by the legislation. So sorry.

  7. #117
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Article 1 Section 8 grants Congress the authority to spend on the enumerated powers only.

    Health care, socialist security, education, energy, farm subsidies, baseball,....none of those are enumerated in Art. 1 Sect. 8.
    You lost that argument a long time ago, bro.

  8. #118
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    The SC will reject this argument based on prior case law and their interpretation of the "General Welfare" being met by the legislation. So sorry.
    That's where I would put my money.

  9. #119
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No comment on your apples and oranges argument?
    No surprise. You concede the point, and I accept.

    In any case, your response, above, is another clear example of dishionesty on your part, as I commented on the 'general welfare clause' in the very first post of mine that YOU responded to:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1058373695

    Allow me to repeat myself. It's no big deal as copy/paste is pretty easy --almost as easy as paying attention to what you are reading.

    -The clause you cite gives the power to tax.
    -It does NOT grant the power to create programs that provide for the common defense or the general welfare -- the clauses found in the remainder of the section do this.
    -If your interpretation of the clause is correct, then there would be no need for any of the other clauses found in the article, save the last.
    Unfortunately SCOTUS has ruled otherwise.
    From the ashes.

  10. #120
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    First and foremost; apples to oranges argument would apply if i was comparing another country who has a different set of constitutional laws etc.... Since i have done nothing of the sort, i am perplexed at your use of the term.
    I cannot explain your failure to understand something so plain, obvious and simple. Given that, it must be a willful refusal on your part.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 11-19-09 at 12:00 PM.

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