View Poll Results: Do you support single-payer health care?

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  • Yes

    50 45.87%
  • No

    53 48.62%
  • Maybe, if

    6 5.50%
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Thread: Do you support single-payer health care?

  1. #101
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    So....
    No comment on the general welfare clause? Shocking
    No comment on your apples and oranges argument?
    No surprise. You concede the point, and I accept.

    In any case, your response, above, is another clear example of dishionesty on your part, as I commented on the 'general welfare clause' in the very first post of mine that YOU responded to:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1058373695

    Allow me to repeat myself. It's no big deal as copy/paste is pretty easy --almost as easy as paying attention to what you are reading.

    -The clause you cite gives the power to tax.
    -It does NOT grant the power to create programs that provide for the common defense or the general welfare -- the clauses found in the remainder of the section do this.
    -If your interpretation of the clause is correct, then there would be no need for any of the other clauses found in the article, save the last.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 11-18-09 at 05:27 PM.

  2. #102
    I'm not-low all the time
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post

    -The clause you cite gives the power to tax.
    -It does NOT grant the power to create programs that provide for the common defense or the general welfare -- the clauses found in the remainder of the section do this.
    -If your interpretation of the clause is correct, then there would be no need for any of the other clauses found in the article, save the last.
    Eliminating the opinionated hogwash;

    Article 1 section 8 (the part i was citing) grants government the power to tax and spend, not simply to tax.

    From wiki:
    With the power to tax, implicitly and necessarily, must come the power to spend the revenues raised by such taxation in order to meet the objectives and goals of the government. To what extent this power ought to be utilized by the Congress has been the source of continued dispute and debate since the inception of the federal government, as will be explained below. However, interpretations recognizing an implicit power to spend have been questioned.
    Taxing and Spending Clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  3. #103
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Eliminating the opinionated hogwash;
    Like your diatribe on Military Keynesianism? I'll consider it withdrawn.

    No comment on your apples and oranges argument?
    No surprise. You concede the point, and I accept.

    Article 1 section 8 (the part i was citing) grants government the power to tax and spend, not simply to tax.
    Yes. That's what I responded to. Not sure why you feel the need to repeat it, or why you think repeating it changes anything.

    I'll copy and paste my ressponse yet again:

    -The clause you cite gives the power to tax (and spend)
    -It does NOT grant the power to create programs that provide for the common defense or the general welfare -- the clauses found in the remainder of the section do this.
    -If your interpretation of the clause is correct, then there would be no need for any of the other clauses found in the article, save the last.

    You might try addressing these points, especially the 2nd and 3rd.

  4. #104
    User Hypostrategos's Avatar
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    No. People need to earn what they receive, nobody should be paying for anyone else's health care, unless they voluntarily do so.

  5. #105
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    -The clause you cite gives the power to tax.
    -It does NOT grant the power to create programs that provide for the common defense or the general welfare -- the clauses found in the remainder of the section do this.
    -If your interpretation of the clause is correct, then there would be no need for any of the other clauses found in the article, save the last.
    First and foremost; apples to oranges argument would apply if i was comparing another country who has a different set of constitutional laws etc.... Since i have done nothing of the sort, i am perplexed at your use of the term.

    If anything, you might be able to say i am comparing slices of the apple. This topic is in regard to government funded and managed health care. Yes, health care and military spending are not the same, but they stem from the same source along with the same objective. The US government already insures the majority of the population as it stands, but it in itself is not a single payer system (monopsony). However... the military industrial complex is in fact a monopsony, and i went even further to illustrate various periods of military keynesian policy being implemented.

    When it was brought up that such a policy crowds out the private sector and is government intervention (especially from an economic perspective), you go on to the apples and oranges comment. Now i can see why you are afraid to admit that you support military Keynesianism because of the conflict of interest it might encompasses in regards to your recent posting history; but running away screaming "apples to oranges" is... rather embarrassing.

    You talk about civil/honest debate, and yet refuse to acknowledge other aspects of this debate because it inconveniences your position. If this is dishonest, than please explain your well documented desire to end a plethora of discussions before they even begin (on this thread and many others; if you would like i can list them for you).

    Stating, " i do not wish to comment because it is not the point" cries subjective fear of discussion.

    So i ask again, why is government intervention ok in some instances (when mandated by conservatives) and "going to ruin this country" when implemented by liberals?
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  6. #106
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes, it is. That's why they were specified in the Constitution.
    If your interpretation of the clause is correct, then there would be no need for any of the other clauses found in the article, save the last.


    And?
    All this means is that Congress was not given the power to create them, and that their creation was extra-constitutional.


    The USAF was originally part of the army, and was reorganized into it son wervice in 1947. I have argued that it should be re-absorbed back into the army.


    Both are directly related to the interstate commerce clause.


    Your argument here has been addressed, countered and mooted.


    So?
    Regulation of health insurance is provided for in the interstae commerce clause; there is absolutely NO power granted to the federal government that allows it to PROVIDE health care.


    It is only a cheap cop-out if you arent concerned about the government violating the constitution so it can do something that you thing is a 'good idea', and it is -completely- true.

    -The clause you cite gives the power to tax.
    -It does NOT grant the power to create programs that provide for the common defense or the general welfare -- the clauses found in the remainder of the section do this.
    -If your interpretation of the clause is correct, then there would be no need for any of the other clauses found in the article, save the last.
    Your assumption that this is a cut and dried issue is either hopelessly naive or simply ignorant.

    There has been debate on the general welfare clause and what it allows since the day our constitution was written. James Madison and Alexander Hamilton expressed differing opinions on what it allowed in The Federalist Papers, and they helped write the constitution.

    You're more than welcome to your opinion on the issue of course, but don't pretend that it's anything more than an opinion.
    Last edited by molten_dragon; 11-18-09 at 06:49 PM.
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  7. #107
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    I cannot possible see how a largely monolithic entity like the Government can possibly take over an additional 17% of the economy, especially when it is so personal varies from person to person to such a degree without making it far more expensive or inefficent

  8. #108
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    I cannot possible see how a largely monolithic entity like the Government can possibly take over an additional 17% of the economy, especially when it is so personal varies from person to person to such a degree without making it far more expensive or inefficent
    I don't see how you can conclude that a little reasonable regulation constitutes a total takeover. Unless of course, you're one of them right wing tea bag whack-o-loons.
    Last edited by Whip Comes Down; 11-18-09 at 07:11 PM.

  9. #109
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Whip Comes Down View Post
    I don't see how you can conclude that a little reasonable regulation constitutes a total takeover. Unless of course, you're one of them right wing tea bag whack-o-loons.
    A single payer system isn't a takeover?

  10. #110
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    Re: Do you support single-payer health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    There has been debate on the general welfare clause and what it allows since the day our constitution was written.
    You are becoming wise, grasshopper. The enlightened understand that politicians often make laws that are ambiguous.

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