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Thread: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Assume for the moment that Health Care is a right...
    How does having a right to something create the ability to force others to provide you the means to exercise that right?
    I think that people can sacrifice a little bit of their time to make sure that everyone has vital rights. To make sure that someone are not sacrificing more than other, we will need to force people.

    You must remember that we live in a society, and everyone needs help from others sometimes and that we are dependent on each other. Not only would I say this is fair, but it is important for economical growth.

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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    I think that people can sacrifice a little bit of their time to make sure that everyone has vital rights. To make sure that someone are not sacrificing more than other, we will need to force people.

    You must remember that we live in a society, and everyone needs help from others sometimes and that we are dependent on each other. Not only would I say this is fair, but it is important for economical growth.
    You didnt answer my question.
    You think it is a good idea, and that's fine, but you have not presented an argument that necessarily relates the two concept -- "It's a good idea" is fully countered by "no, it isn't".

    How does my having a right to X equate to you having some enforceable responsbility to provide me the means to exercise that right to X?

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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You didnt answer my question.
    You think it is a good idea, and that's fine, but you have not presented an argument that necessarily relates the two concept -- "It's a good idea" is fully countered by "no, it isn't".

    How does my having a right to X equate to you having some enforceable responsbility to provide me the means to exercise that right to X?
    Well, if we think about the meaning of a right. A right, is something that everyone in a society should have. This means that if a right is not being able to be provided for all by the private market, then we will need as a society to spend some of our time to make sure that all people have the rights. As a society can't in reality provide it by donations, then we will need to force people .

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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Well, if we think about the meaning of a right. A right, is something that everyone in a society should have.
    No, a right is a freedom or a liberty that you can exercise, to the extent that does not interfere with the rights of others.

    You have a right to health care, just like you have a right to a TV or a car or a telephone.

    This means that if a right is not being able to be provided for all by the private market...
    Rights are provided for by the people that exercise them. If you do not have the means to exercise a right, then you cannot exercise that right until you do. Not having the means to exercise a right in no way creates a condition where you can force others to provide you said means.

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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    You are sharing risk, and this includes the ongoing cost of someone with a preexisting condition. I think diabetes may be one of the worst of these, since lifespan is long but monthly cost is high.



    This is why I am now leaning toward single payer, even though it may be run inefficiently. Like education, everyone should be covered for health care. Everyone pays.
    Goobieman, you didn't comment on this, but I didn't ask a question.

    I was very careful to not call health care for all a right. It is not a right. It is more like education in America. Everyone has access to a public education through grade 12 and there are public universities after that for a small tuition. This is paid for through local taxes. A possible voucher system is proposed.

    This is what caused me to think of using a voucher system for health care - its similarity to education. We should tax locally for health care. You are paying for those few that need extra care, like they are in special education.

    So a pair of questions to you. Is education a right? How do you justify everyone paying for education?
    Last edited by reefedjib; 11-17-09 at 05:22 PM.

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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No, a right is a freedom or a liberty that you can exercise, to the extent that does not interfere with the rights of others.

    You have a right to health care, just like you have a right to a TV or a car or a telephone.


    Rights are provided for by the people that exercise them. If you do not have the means to exercise a right, then you cannot exercise that right until you do. Not having the means to exercise a right in no way creates a condition where you can force others to provide you said means.
    I disagree with your definition of a right. I will say that you do not have a right to a TV or a car. If you want one you will need pay. My definition of human rights follow the textbooks, which define it as "A basic right that all humans should be guaranteed" I believe the rights in a western society should at least be primary education, unemployment benefits, pretty much equal opportunities and vital health care.
    [ame=http://www.google.no/search?hl=no&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&hs=wcq&defl=en&q=define:human+right&ei=nRM DS_vvOYjt-Aah7vD7Dw&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved =0CAcQkAE]define:human right - Google-søk[/ame]
    human rights - Definition of human rights plural noun from Cambridge Dictionary Online: Free English Dictionary and Thesaurus
    Last edited by Camlon; 11-17-09 at 05:30 PM.

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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Goobieman, you didn't comment on this, but I didn't ask a question.

    I was very careful to not call health care for all a right. It is not a right. It is more like education in America. Everyone has access to a public education through grade 12 and there are public universities after that for a small tuition. This is paid for through local taxes. A possible voucher system is proposed.

    So a question to you. Is education a right? How do you justify everyone paying for education?
    Very good questons.

    Two things:
    First, we're discussing a federal program here. Education is and should remain a state issue, and as such the federal government should have nothing to do with it. This applies to health care as well; If a state wants to do something to this end, it is up to the state to do it.

    Second, education is a basic necessity for society to function. Health care is a luxury, not a necessity; it might be an effective means to maintain certain aspects of a certain standard of living, but the 'need' for that standard of living is, at best, subjective, and at worst, narcissistic.

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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    I disagree with your definition of a right.
    Then you are making up definitions to suit your argument, which means that your argument necessarily fails.

    I will say that you do not have a right to a TV or a car. If you want one you will need pay.
    So?
    You have the right to property. So does the person that holds the property you would like to have. His right to that property necessitates that you compensate him for it, to whatever degree that you both agree. Once you make that exchange, the property then becomes yours, and you have the right toi be compensated for it, should someone else want it.

    Having a right to something doesnt mean you get to exercise that right for free.

    My definition of human rights follow the textbooks, which define it as "A basic right that all humans should be guaranteed" I believe this includes primary education, unemployment benefits, and vital health care.
    As noted before, you are making up definitions to suit your argument.
    Note as well that "guaranteed" is not used in the context of "provided for" but "access to", in that the government cannot arbitrarily keep them from you.
    See: the US Bill of Rights, that guarantee certain rights to the people.

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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    I think that people can sacrifice a little bit of their time to make sure that everyone has vital rights. To make sure that someone are not sacrificing more than other, we will need to force people.
    The rights to life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness are not "vital" rights. They are rights as outlined in the Declaration of Indpendence.

    Your right to life is your right to live without the threat of someone else taking your life without facing legal consequences. It is not the right to have someone else pay for your life to be extended beyond it's natural lifespan.

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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Very good questons.
    Why, thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Two things:
    First, we're discussing a federal program here. Education is and should remain a state issue, and as such the federal government should have nothing to do with it. This applies to health care as well; If a state wants to do something to this end, it is up to the state to do it.
    A few things to be said here:
    1) I agree that health care should be a states rights issue. I believe this is the Whig party position - see my blog in my sig and link to the national party website (please visit, its a brand new blog! ).

    2) Other than NCLB, aren't there federal statutes governing that providing education is mandatory for states, even though there is limited federal financing - majority local financing? There is a Dept of Education. What does it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Second, education is a basic necessity for society to function. Health care is a luxury, not a necessity; it might be an effective means to maintain certain aspects of a certain standard of living, but the 'need' for that standard of living is, at best, subjective, and at worst, narcissistic.
    3) You are using the term 'necessity'. Is this a legal term that enforces that fact that a 12th grade education be provided to everyone. If not, what is the legal reason we have this?

    4) To use your terms, I would argue that health care is not a luxury, not a right, but a necessity for a functioning society. It is an absolute embarrassment that we don't provide coverage to everyone. We don't lead the world in this regard and we should.

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