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Thread: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

  1. #21
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I don't agree with the OP for one simple reason. Pre-existing conditions. I have Diabetes, Bipolar Disorder and I smoke. I applied to 4 insurance companies when I was out of work and was rejected by all of them.

    I don't mind having tiers of medical support. Everyone gets emergency support. If you want the Cadillac of coverage, you can get it on the open market, but you cannot get turned away for pre-existing conditions. You also can't be placed in a high-use bracket and have to pay through the nose. You get placed in the same insurance group as everyone else and pay those rates.
    There's no reason you shouldn't pay more for health insurance.

    You're a greater risk.

    Diabetics and bipolars are at greater risk for all sorts of crappy problems, there's no reason other people not sharing those elevated risks should have to pay more to cover those with the risks.

    And your smoking is a personal choice, and there's no reason non-smokers should subsidize your habit.

    You think maybe women should pay higher premiums to cover prostate problems?

    Should men pay higher premiums for hysterectomy coverage?

    Should a white person pay to cover sickle cell anemia coverage?

    Should the average person pay extra because other people enjoy the hobby of rock climbing?

    No, each person has his own unique profile, and that's what should be insured....by that person, if and only if he wants to pay for it.

    That's what freedom is.

  2. #22
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    So we're going to turn our hospitals into prisons for those who can't pay their medical bills?
    No, we can ship them to special facilities....I think they're called jails in most places....until their bill is paid or assured to be paid.

    You have a problem with businesses receiving payment for services rendered?

    Isn't it a misdemeanor to eat a meal at a restaurant and refuse to pay for it, or to get a roof put on your house and stiff the contractor? Medical service is no different, it's provided by people who expect to be paid for their services.

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Who's going to guard the 'prisoners'?
    Usually that's the job of prison guards.

    Duh.

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Who's going to pay the costs associated with detaining them there?
    They will.

    Most garages will charge a storage fee for vehicles left longer than a few days, don't they?

    Shouldn't non-paying patients be charged for the expenses their choice incurs on others?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    I'm mostly agree with what you're saying (i.e. that there should be consequences for people who choose not to have health insurance),
    The only consequence I actually insist on is they be allowed to die before my money is stolen to fix them.

    You're perfectly free to contribute your own money to whatever cause gets you off, you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    but the idea of forcing people to stay in the hospital until they can pay their bills doesn't seem well thought out to me.
    It's perfectly thought out.

    People who don't want to spend any more time than they have to eating hospital food will either buy insurance or make sure they have friends who will pay to get them out.

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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    I think impoverished children should receive free health care.

    I think uninsured adults who suffer from catostrophic injuries should receive treatment but once they're out of the hospital they should either:

    a. Repay the debt, whatever the cost or
    b. Go to jail if they cannot repay.

  4. #24
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    So we're going to turn our hospitals into prisons for those who can't pay their medical bills?
    No... we have prisons for that.
    Pay your bill or go to jail for (some version of) theft.

  5. #25
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Although, I agree with the principle that you have your own responsibility for your own life, I still disagree to some exctent.

    Some people are not able to pay for health care for various reasons, their wage may just be too low, they got fired, or any reason. I think basic health care is a vital right for everyone. That's why we should at least pay for emergency health care.

    Another aspect is the economy. In some ways the government has to act as a nanny state, because irresponsible people hurt other people. Some people will hope for the best and suddenly they get cancer and dies because they can't afford treatment. Then a lot of hard work from the parents and the tax payers money for their education goes down in the drain and it will hurt the economy. To keep people healthy is important, to keep the economy running.
    Last edited by Camlon; 11-17-09 at 02:03 PM.

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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post

    Whatever, maybe instead you people can donate enough of your own money to make your dream a reality.

    If you weren't selfish, you would have done so already.
    I don't have a dream, but I do pay for my own health insurance. Fortunately, it is provided through my employer and is not terribly expensive. That being said, the reality is that if someone is taken to a hospital for a really life-threatening problem, he/she will be treated regardless of ability to pay or insurance status. Althought I don't agree entirely with Denninger on the health care issue, he has some thoughts worth considering on the health care problem.

    excerpt:

    If you show up without insurance or ability to pay with a life-threatening condition, you will be treated, but the hospital cannot cost-shift the bill - it instead bills The Federal Government. We have created an expectation that if you show up needing emergency treatment you will get it, irrespective of ability to pay. This creates a monstrous problem for hospitals and results in the $30 aspirin, among other outrageous distortions. The solution is to have The Federal Government receive all uninsured and unpaid bills, with the debt being immediately paid by the government. Said debt then becomes a collection item against the citizen - a debt to the Treasury, administered by the Internal Revenue Service. If you cannot pay cash, that's fine - the IRS will be happy to take payments (at interest.) If you're an illegal alien the Federal Government will be mandated (by statute) to collect from the other nation, and if they refuse to pay, to deduct any such amount from foreign aid of any type and source on a dollar-for-dollar basis.
    If you're interested in reading his other ideas:

    Health Care: WAKE UP WASHINGTON! - The Market Ticker

  7. #27
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    There's no reason you shouldn't pay more for health insurance.

    You're a greater risk.

    Diabetics and bipolars are at greater risk for all sorts of crappy problems, there's no reason other people not sharing those elevated risks should have to pay more to cover those with the risks.
    I could not afford the health care and medication I receive. I visit the various doctors often. I take about $1200/month in medication. Luckily I have group insurance through my job.

    I know diabetics who have no health insurance and they cannot afford their meds. The are suffering and getting worse.

    The whole point of insurance is to spread the risk. All the members of my group insurance pay a little bit for my health care. This is because I require care in excess of what I pay. They pay in excess of what they use. My costs are spread through the group. Insurance mitigates risk and that is what is happening here.

    The same argument could be provided on a broader scale. Let's just say that we have single-payer. (I don't like the idea that it would be government run as they are likely to mismanage it). All people would pay for all medical costs. It would be like one giant group insurance. Many people would pay more than they use. There are those like myself that would use more than they pay.

    This is why I like a tiered approach, with some level of care given for everyone, and premium services offered to those with private insurance.

    There are other things you pay for that you may not use in this country:
    • Welfare
    • Medicaid
    • Medicare
    • Social Security
    • FCC
    • FAA
    • HHS
    • Transportation
    • Energy
    • NSF


    Any others? Not all entitlements, we can see.

    There are those things that you pay for that you use or get service from:
    • Military
    • Intelligence
    • Justice


    ****, maybe I just talked myself into being in favor of single-payer.

  8. #28
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    The whole point of insurance is to spread the risk. All the members of my group insurance pay a little bit for my health care. This is because I require care in excess of what I pay. They pay in excess of what they use. My costs are spread through the group. Insurance mitigates risk and that is what is happening here.
    As noted before, spreading the risk thru purchasing isnurance is a voluntary association. Socializing the risk thru government is not.

    The same argument could be provided on a broader scale. Let's just say that we have single-payer. (I don't like the idea that it would be government run as they are likely to mismanage it). All people would pay for all medical costs. It would be like one giant group insurance. Many people would pay more than they use. There are those like myself that would use more than they pay.
    Yes... and I would be forced to pay for that excess cost, as compared to buying into insurance, in which case I choose to pay fot that excess.

  9. #29
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No, we can ship them to special facilities....I think they're called jails in most places....until their bill is paid or assured to be paid.

    You have a problem with businesses receiving payment for services rendered?

    Isn't it a misdemeanor to eat a meal at a restaurant and refuse to pay for it, or to get a roof put on your house and stiff the contractor? Medical service is no different, it's provided by people who expect to be paid for their services.



    Usually that's the job of prison guards.

    Duh.



    They will.

    Most garages will charge a storage fee for vehicles left longer than a few days, don't they?

    Shouldn't non-paying patients be charged for the expenses their choice incurs on others?



    The only consequence I actually insist on is they be allowed to die before my money is stolen to fix them.

    You're perfectly free to contribute your own money to whatever cause gets you off, you know.



    It's perfectly thought out.

    People who don't want to spend any more time than they have to eating hospital food will either buy insurance or make sure they have friends who will pay to get them out.
    I'm fine with requiring them to pay their debts, but you didn't originally say 'send them to jail if they don't pay'. You said 'don't let them leave', look, I'll quote you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No, there's another.

    Don't let the patient go until the bill is paid or sufficient assurances that the bill will be paid are presented.
    I took 'don't let the patient go' literally. Not my fault if you were unclear.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  10. #30
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I could not afford the health care and medication I receive.
    Life's a bitch, ain't it?

    Can you explain why I should pay instead of you?

    I visit the various doctors often. I take about $1200/month in medication. Luckily I have group insurance through my job.

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I know diabetics who have no health insurance and they cannot afford their meds. The are suffering and getting worse.
    That's what happens when people get fatal illnesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    The whole point of insurance is to spread the risk.
    Among users choosing to be in the risk pool.

    Since I don't have ovaries, I should be allowed to opt out of coverage for ovarian cancer, and should be paying whatever the actuarial tables say should be the rate for testicular cancer coverage.

    Since I do have diabetes, I should be paying for whatever risks that disease entails, and people who don't have it, and believe themselves to be at low risk, should not have to buy that coverage if they don't want it.

    This is called the free market. It works wonderfully well, and when the government gets out of the way the free market typically provides those services the people require. But, because the government is in the way, on many levels, the free market can't work in health care right now.

    The cause of the problem is government, and more government isn't the cure, just like more sugar won't cure diabetes.

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    All the members of my group insurance pay a little bit for my health care. This is because I require care in excess of what I pay. They pay in excess of what they use. My costs are spread through the group. Insurance mitigates risk and that is what is happening here.
    If they're paying more for risks they don't have, they're either fools or being denied freedom of choice.

    Which is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    The same argument could be provided on a broader scale. Let's just say that we have single-payer. (I don't like the idea that it would be government run as they are likely to mismanage it).
    ALL government health plans migrate into single payer for the masses with special care for the elites.

    Messiah Care won't be any exception to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    All people would pay for all medical costs.
    Why should I pay for risks I don't have?

    Why should I pay so people who won't pay now can get coverage?

    [QUOTE=reefedjib;1058370068]There are other things you pay for that you may not use in this country:
    • Welfare
    • Medicaid
    • Medicare
    • Social Security
    • FCC
    • FAA
    • HHS
    • Transportation
    • Energy
    • NSF


    Hmmm.....Welfare, Medicaid, Medicare, Socialist Security, FCC, HHS, Energy, NSF have no Constitutional support whatsoever. The FAA could remotely be called "sky cops" and hence fit a legitimate function of government, and Transportation could come under "post roads" if you stretch it, but for the most part, the government has weaseled its way into tremendous areas of the American economy where it has no legitimate authority.

    Health care is another area where the politicians are trying to seize power without Constitutional authority.

    [QUOTE=reefedjib;1058370068]There are those things that you pay for that you use or get service from:
    • Military
    • Intelligence
    • Justice


    Ah, you mean the military that performs a vital and legitimate function of government, the spying agencies that perform a military necessary function, and the justice department that also perform a vital and legitimate function of government?

    Amazing, I'm paying for what governments are supposed to be doing.

    Why do you think I'd take issue with that?

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