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Thread: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

  1. #141
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I disagree with any mandated health care position.

    If one does not want to have health care, they should be allowed to opt out. However, if they then get ill, under no circumstances should the government assist or subsidize their health expenses. They made a choice. They need to then take responsibility for that choice and manage their health care out of their own expenses.

    Also, doctors and hospitals should not be required to accept any "opt out" patients without ability to pay verification. IMO, this kind of thing will save the US more tax dollars than anything I've seen presented in health care reform.

    Do you agree with me?
    Why or why not?
    The problem with this is that it doesn't take into consideration that the poor are more likely to be sick because they can not afford healthier lifestyles. If hospitals are allowed to refuse people healthcare because they can't pay that just means more sick people, less people able to work and overall a societal crisis. No thanks.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  2. #142
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    The problem with this is that it doesn't take into consideration that the poor are more likely to be sick because they can not afford healthier lifestyles.
    Yes it does.

    If hospitals are allowed to refuse people healthcare because they can't pay that just means more sick people, less people able to work and overall a societal crisis. No thanks.
    You are free to contibute to charity, if you should see fit.
    Do not presume to make that choice for others.

  3. #143
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes it does.
    Negative. If it did you wouldn't even begin to think about denying people health care simply because they can not afford it.

    You are free to contibute to charity, if you should see fit.
    Do not presume to make that choice for others.
    Ah so nothing to provide except the same old tired rhetoric of the me generation.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  4. #144
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Negative. If it did you wouldn't even begin to think about denying people health care simply because they can not afford it.
    Yes, yes I did.
    I know exactly what I considered when I came up with what I came up with, and I assure you that this -was- considered.

    Ah so nothing to provide except the same old tired rhetoric of the me generation.
    I see you cannot actually counter my point, that you are free to be as 'compassionate' as you find necessary, but have no place to make that same choice for others.
    Fair enough.

  5. #145
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Allowing providers (of anything) to charge people for products and services they do not receive violates free market principles.
    It's part of the cost of doing business. Restaurants sometimes buy too much food and some of it goes to waste. They take that into account when setting their prices. Companies that manufacture clothes make mistakes and have to throw a certain portion of the product out, and that cost is rolled into their prices. We pay every day for things that we never see or benefit from, why should health care be any different?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Why do you find it acceptable that your doctor charges you for these things?
    Because I feel that letting someone die when it is within the power of society to prevent it is wrong.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  6. #146
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Right Wing Whacko
    If one does not want to have health care, they should be allowed to opt out.
    If you don't want to live in a society that values universal health care, you can always go live some where else, boo dog.

  7. #147
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    It's part of the cost of doing business....
    There is also shrinkage, especially due to shoplifting, etc.

    There is a difference between an incidental/unpredicatble/unavoiable cost and a cost incurred because of deliberate choices made by the company to provide goods and services to those that cannot pay. The items you describe are not billable goods and services provided to others, but, as you said, the cost of doing business. In the case of health care, someone directly received a specific and definite benefit, in the case of mistake-related waste, they did not.

    Because I feel that letting someone die when it is within the power of society to prevent it is wrong.
    This is your -moral- position, a moral choice; while you are free to make that choice, you are not free to impose that choice on others.

    I believe that letting people do a lot of things when it is within the power of society to prevent it is wrong -- and I am sure that if I were to argue that the government should prevent these things, you'd be in nits.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 11-25-09 at 02:15 PM.

  8. #148
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Whip Comes Down View Post
    If you don't want to live in a society that values universal health care, you can always go live some where else, boo dog.
    If you want to live in a society that DOES value universal health care, you can always go to France. Bro.

  9. #149
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    There is also shrinkage, especially due to shoplifting, etc.

    There is a difference between an incidental/unpredicatble/unavoiable cost and a cost incurred because of deliberate choices made by the company to provide goods and services to those that cannot pay. The items you describe are not billable goods and services provided to others, but, as you said, the cost of doing business. In the case of health care, someone directly received a specific and definite benefit, in the case of mistake-related waste, they did not.
    So it's okay that you pay for goods/services that you never receive as long as no one else gets to benefit from them either?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    This is your -moral- position, a moral choice; while you are free to make that choice, you are not free to impose that choice on others.

    I believe that letting people do a lot of things when it is within the power of society to prevent it is wrong -- and I am sure that if I were to argue that the government should prevent these things, you'd be in nits.
    When you really dig down and look at it, all of our laws are a moral position that is being imposed on others. The idea that murder is wrong is a moral position. It's one shared by a great many people, but it's not universal. And yet, that moral position is forced upon everyone in the country. So I would say that yes, we do indeed force a moral position on our citizens.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  10. #150
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    So it's okay that you pay for goods/services that you never receive as long as no one else gets to benefit from them either?
    You asked me to explain the difference, and I did.
    Waste/accidental loss is not a goods/service provided to someone else, and so is not example of how we already pay for goods/services provided to someone else.

    When you really dig down and look at it, all of our laws are a moral position that is being imposed on others.
    They are not, as I have explained.
    They protect our rights, not impose our morality.

    The idea that murder is wrong is a moral position.
    It is. But that's not why it is illegal.

    So I would say that yes, we do indeed force a moral position on our citizens.
    We do when we say 'we should do this because it is the right thing to do'.
    We do not when we say 'this action is probibited because it violates someones' rights'.

    Laws against murder fall into the latter; your justificaton for forming others to pay for goods and services they did not receive falls into the former.

    As I said, you can argue for the impostion of moraity if you want, but, should you decide to argue against someone that wants to do the same to you, you haven't a shed of credibility.

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