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Thread: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

  1. #111
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by vvx View Post
    I don't think you can change the first point. Which forces the second point.
    No, the second point -- indeed, all of this -- is not forced, its a choice.

    Currently it's the other people who obtain services. Moving it to taxpayers doesn't seem any more unfair to me.
    You dont think its unfair for your doctor to hand you a bill for goods and services that he provided to someone else?

  2. #112
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Just out of curiosity, what rights do you believe this violates?
    Your right to property -- that what you earn is yours, and that no one else has a claim to it that exceeds yours.

    Government run healthcare would be paid for by taxes, and we don't have the right to not pay taxes.

    Or does this tie into your belief that providing health care is not a valid function of the government?
    Absolutely.

  3. #113
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    The law forcing hospitals to treat ER patients is not going to change just because some are staunchly against mandated health care. Given that, can you now provide rational responses to my arguments? Thanks.
    All of the responses I provided are rational.

  4. #114
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Just out of curiosity, what rights do you believe this violates?

    Government run healthcare would be paid for by taxes, and we don't have the right to not pay taxes.
    We have every right to withhold taxes taken in payment for services the government is not legally allowed to render.

    Health is one of those.

    That's why socialists have guns.

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Or does this tie into your belief that providing health care is not a valid function of the government?
    It's not a belief, it's a fact.

  5. #115
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    No, I am talking about society as a whole. The fabric of society is based on the well-being of its citizenry. If they are uneducated, that prevents them from being knowledgeable, if they are sick, that prevents them from working and contributing to society.
    They don't have to "contribute" to society. Society has no claim on their lives. The only responsiblity any person has towards "society" is to live their live so they do not become a burden.

    Period.

    This idea that people have to "contribute" or "give back" to society is just socialist nonsense. The act of living itself and the interactions a man has with others in the course of his work and life, his basic commerce, is all that's needed to measure his influence on those around him, and he is in no way obligated to surrender more to satisfy some elitist's notion of what his "contribution" should be to be considered a "productive" member of society.

    If a man chooses to work for the least paying job he can find and spend his off hours slamming beers and watching TV, that's his business, and only his business. And if his lifestyle choice leads him to cirrhosis and diabetes and stroke, that's his problem, and his problem only.

    He's under no obligation to pay more taxes to support someone else's health care, just as no one is under any obligation to pay for his.

    This is called freedom.

    Oh, by the way, since you've probably never heard this before, and I know it's a completely alien thought in the socialist circles you travel in, there's no law stopping you from contributing as much of your own money as you think is moral to help the lower economic echelons. So don't go babbling about WE should be force to pay for the programs you are completely unwilling to finance yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    A better analogy would be if the transmission was slipping. You can still go forward, but not as efficiently as you could if the transmission was fixed.
    An even better analogy is that cannibalism destroys societies and growth, and that's what socialism is.

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I think you should. I am saying that healthcare resembles education and you are objecting to that. What is it about education that you think makes it a necessity?
    If by this statement you believe that it's necessary for the federal government to run public schools, you're not only wrong, but the federal financing of public education is in fact a violation of the Constitution.

    PARENTS! Those are the people, and they're the only people, who are responsible for ensuring their offspring gets educated. Even Sidney Poitier knows this. Watch the original "Guess Who's Coming To Dinner" if you don't believe me.

  6. #116
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Your position is sound except for one point... and that is doctors refusing treatment in critical ER situations. They must accept patients who are dying of critical injuries. It would be against medical ethics not to. Even a broken bone can be life threatening if it nicks a nearby artery as it shatters, or an allergy that is causing physical distress.

    Given that, you would be hard pressed to define what could be considered "critical" and what isn't just based on initial appearance. Tests and reporting are required, as well as observation. This all requires money.

    People should not be able to opt out under those grounds, and frankly to assume they could is just arrogant. I think the health care legislation has its flaws, but if it's going to go into practice, then it should encompass everyone. People wanting to opt out mostly don't have medical experience and are doing it from a libertarian perspective; meanwhile they have no way of knowing what medical issues face them down the road.

    If you get critically injured, you will WANT care, regardless of what your position was beforehand. People without insurance now still get treated in such circumstances, but they can't pay their bills. This creates a burden on the entire system. That burden can only be plugged with mandated health care.
    So, what you're trying to say is that the Emergency Room situation is expensive, so we should nationalize the entire industry because ....well, your argument doesn't actually make any sense.

    If ER treatment is expensive, then it's necessary to make people bear the cost of their treatment, since that's how the laws of economics work to reduce the demand on a resource.

    The best idea I heard in the last twenty years of health care discussion is the idea of medical savings accounts, in which people can put up to $5000 pre-tax dollars in an account, be it a mutual fund or whatever, their choice, and draw from that account without taxation to pay for medical expenses. Any money they don't spend it theirs to keep, forever, until they die, when it becomes the property of their heirs.

    It's their money they're spending, most of them will choose wisely how it's spent. And by the time their in their fifties, when most people start falling apart, they'll have hundreds of thousands of dollars available to treat themselves.

    And for those situations where real insurance is needed, people should, but should not be required to, buy a relatively inexpensive catastrophic coverage plan that will handle the emergencies or little cancers that might tap out their savings.

    You see, this is how a society that respects human freedom and dignity, you know, a society concerned about real "progress", would encourage its citizens to become responsible self-reliant adults.

    And for those that can't afford that basic coverage, we will always have socialists who are so caring about the lives of others that they'll be glad to donate their own time and money to help the poor. If they won't do that, they're just ignorant hypocrites promoting plans for some reason not related to the health and well being of others.

  7. #117
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    We have every right to withhold taxes taken in payment for services the government is not legally allowed to render.

    Health is one of those.

    That's why socialists have guns.



    It's not a belief, it's a fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Your right to property -- that what you earn is yours, and that no one else has a claim to it that exceeds yours.


    Absolutely.
    Fair enough. I think I'll keep the debate on this issue in the other thread.
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  8. #118
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    If ER treatment is expensive, then it's necessary to make people bear the cost of their treatment, since that's how the laws of economics work to reduce the demand on a resource.
    That won't work though. Most people, when faced with the choice of dying or going to the ER regardless of whether they can pay the bills or not are going to say damn the consequences and go to the ER. The economics of supply and demand don't work so well when people's lives are on the line.

    Being realistic, even if there was no law requiring hospitals to treat patients even if they can't pay, it would still happen a lot. Most doctors won't see a dying person and say "sorry, but I can't help you, you have no money", and most hospitals won't require doctors to do it because they don't want the negative publicity. So you'll just end up with the same situation you have now. The hospital treats the patient regardless of their ability to pay, and passes the costs on to their other patients.

    This has got me wondering something. I wonder how much extra labor/time/money is spent in hospitals every year treating people who don't see a doctor for something fairly minor because they can't afford it. Then, when it progresses to something serious, they go to the hospital, and it ends up costing 10x (or more) as much as it would have cost had they been able to go to the doctor in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    The best idea I heard in the last twenty years of health care discussion is the idea of medical savings accounts, in which people can put up to $5000 pre-tax dollars in an account, be it a mutual fund or whatever, their choice, and draw from that account without taxation to pay for medical expenses. Any money they don't spend it theirs to keep, forever, until they die, when it becomes the property of their heirs.

    It's their money they're spending, most of them will choose wisely how it's spent. And by the time their in their fifties, when most people start falling apart, they'll have hundreds of thousands of dollars available to treat themselves.

    And for those situations where real insurance is needed, people should, but should not be required to, buy a relatively inexpensive catastrophic coverage plan that will handle the emergencies or little cancers that might tap out their savings.

    You see, this is how a society that respects human freedom and dignity, you know, a society concerned about real "progress", would encourage its citizens to become responsible self-reliant adults.
    You know, I kind of agree with this idea. There are some changes I would want before I got fully behind it, but overall, this is a pretty good idea.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

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  9. #119
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    If healthcare tax was an option would the government be able to afford its short term costs?
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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  10. #120
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You dont think its unfair for your doctor to hand you a bill for goods and services that he provided to someone else?
    That's my point - the current system already forces me to pay for the healthcare of others. The current system is broken, and needs to be fixed. Moving the costs for the currently uninsured from those who currently pay their medical bills to the taxpayers is not any more unfair. In fact, it's less unfair because a portion of that cost can be collected from tax on the very people who don't pay their medical bills right now.

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