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Thread: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

  1. #101
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Well then, if that's the case, its imposisble to argue that health care is a necessity, as people, on a societal level, are currently more than capable of 'contributing' -- and always have been, even when the idea of 'health care' was making sure you kept warm in the winter.

    You might argue that things might be 'better' if something were in place, but, as I suggested before, something that would make things better is a luxury, not a 'necessity'.
    No, it's the same as saying that compulsory education should go through the 12th grade instead of the 6th grade. People would be perfectly capable in that case, yet it is deemed better to go to the 12th grade. Why?

  2. #102
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Mandated by the state and mandated by ethics are different things.
    A health care provider must have the choice, and must make that choice knowing that he may not be compensated for his services.
    I disagree. If an American citizen calls 911 because they are dying, they need to be treated. If they are incapacitated and can't make that choice, they must be treated. If they have seemingly have no money to pay for ER care, they must be treated. Period. That is the way hospitals operate. I'm not talking about out-patient care or anything else; I'm talking about critical injuries. I am against the far-right/libertarian perspective overriding hundreds of years of medical ethics just because they are against "socialism".

    The opt-outs will end up charging the mandated system money anyway, once they suffer critical injuries and their political ideology goes out the window as they seek care. And they WILL. You can only speak for yourself, not the thousands of others who would change their minds in a heartbeat when their lives are in danger.

    The idea of opt-outs are fine in principle but in practice they will never work.

  3. #103
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I disagree. If an American citizen calls 911 because they are dying, they need to be treated. If they are incapacitated and can't make that choice, they must be treated. If they have seemingly have no money to pay for ER care, they must be treated. Period. That is the way hospitals operate.
    Yes - at which point, when you treat people that cannot pay, you have two choices:

    -Force the health care providers to provide their goods and services for free
    -Force others to pay for goods and services they themselves did not receive.

    Neither of these are acceptable as they violate the rights of those involved.

  4. #104
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes - at which point, when you treat people that cannot pay, you have two choices:

    -Force the health care providers to provide their goods and services for free
    -Force others to pay for goods and services they themselves did not receive.

    Neither of these are acceptable as they violate the rights of those involved.
    Why did you ignore the rest of my post?

    You treat those two points as being mutually exclusive, but they're not. The emergency care providers DO provide their costs for free in such instances, which is why prices for services rendered increase for everyone over time, which in turn raises insurance premiums to cover increased costs. Point two takes place because of point one, not instead of it.

    With public health insurance, the hospitals never have to worry about a bill not being paid, and the cost of services levels out.

    You omitted my point about opt-outs seeking services anyway. Given that hospitals MUST treat all emergency care patients, how do you reconcile the fact that large numbers of opt-outs would still seek care and be treated despite their touted ideology?

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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Why did you ignore the rest of my post?
    Because it goes past the point I made, on the assumption that the point you made is valid -- even though it has been challenged, directly.

    You treat those two points as being mutually exclusive, but they're not. The emergency care providers DO provide their costs for free in such instances...
    Because they are forced to by law. The argument against this has been made, and yet you run right past it.

    which is why prices for services rendered increase for everyone over time, which in turn raises insurance premiums to cover increased costs. Point two takes place because of point one, not instead of it.
    yes. This is where others are forced to pay for those that cannot.
    This is unacceptable as it violates th erights of those forced to pay.

    With public health insurance, the hospitals never have to worry about a bill not being paid, and the cost of services levels out.
    See above.

    You omitted my point about opt-outs seeking services anyway. Given that hospitals MUST treat all emergency care patients...
    Because they are forced to by law. The argument against this has been made, and yet you run right past it.

  6. #106
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes - at which point, when you treat people that cannot pay, you have two choices:

    -Force the health care providers to provide their goods and services for free
    -Force others to pay for goods and services they themselves did not receive.

    Neither of these are acceptable as they violate the rights of those involved.
    I don't think you can change the first point. Which forces the second point. If the first point is true, someone has to pay for those expenses. Currently it's the other people who obtain services. Moving it to taxpayers doesn't seem any more unfair to me. And in fact, by moving it to other taxpayers, you could allocate some portion of that cost onto the very people who created it.

  7. #107
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Medical insurance requires that a pool of individuals pay into a central fund, in order to reduce their individual risk of bankruptcy because of illness. Some may never claim, but will have peace of mind. Others may suffer catastrophic illness, but the insurance will cover their costs, even though they may not have paid in that much in premiums. Making the central pot as large as possible covers everybody. Funding through taxation does this.

  8. #108
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Medical insurance requires that a pool of individuals pay into a central fund, in order to reduce their individual risk of bankruptcy because of illness. Some may never claim, but will have peace of mind. Others may suffer catastrophic illness, but the insurance will cover their costs, even though they may not have paid in that much in premiums. Making the central pot as large as possible covers everybody. Funding through taxation does this.
    BINGO!

    Now moving all of the high risk applicants across the tax pool, IMHO, reduces market inefficiency in regards to these citizens. However, there is no reason to believe that the risk aversion industry cannot operate efficiently without government intervention.

    Call it a perfect mixture
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  9. #109
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    yes. This is where others are forced to pay for those that cannot.
    This is unacceptable as it violates th erights of those forced to pay.
    Just out of curiosity, what rights do you believe this violates?

    Government run healthcare would be paid for by taxes, and we don't have the right to not pay taxes.

    Or does this tie into your belief that providing health care is not a valid function of the government?
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Because it goes past the point I made, on the assumption that the point you made is valid -- even though it has been challenged, directly.


    Because they are forced to by law. The argument against this has been made, and yet you run right past it.


    yes. This is where others are forced to pay for those that cannot.
    This is unacceptable as it violates th erights of those forced to pay.


    See above.


    Because they are forced to by law. The argument against this has been made, and yet you run right past it.
    The law forcing hospitals to treat ER patients is not going to change just because some are staunchly against mandated health care. Given that, can you now provide rational responses to my arguments? Thanks.

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