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Thread: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

  1. #91
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post

    Sigh.
    Here's the problem with your argument:

    That society is not, according to you, "well-functioning in this regard" does not mean that it is not, as a whole well-functioning.

    Thus, you have failed to show necessity, especially one that rises to the level of education.
    I disagree.

    You never explained the necessity of education if creating a well-functioning society.

  2. #92
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I disagree.
    That just means you wont admit you're wrong.

    You said:
    We do not have a well-functioning society in this regard
    You're trying to show that some degree of inefficacy in one part of society indicates that society in general is not well-functioning, and then that correcting said inefficacy is necessary to have a well-functiong society in general.

    Your logic fails; it is no different than saying because your car radio doesn't work, your car doesnt run well, and then, in order for your car to run well, you must fix the radio. You might not like the fact your radio doesnt work, and you'd certainly LIKE to fix it, but it doesnt mean the car isnt running well.

    Necessity is a strong word. Your use of it does not meet its deninition.

    You never explained the necessity of education in creating a well-functioning society.
    Do I really need to? Where do you suppose our society would be if there were not basic education? I mean, other than non-existant.
    And dont forget -- the term I used was "our society".

  3. #93
    User Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    1. Medicaid and Medicare: These remain federal programs for those states that do not adopt compulsory healthcare. They become part of the state program for those states that do adopt compulsory healthcare. The federal funds will go to the state.
    It should be noted that Medicaid and Medicare are compleetly bankrupt.



    There must be a reason, Although, I just cant seem to put my finger on it...


    -----------------------------------------------------

    "Over seven years, the federal program for the elderly and disabled paid at least about $77 million and possibly as much as $92 million to purported medical equipment suppliers who used Medicare ID numbers of deceased physicians, says a report out Wednesday by congressional investigators" (The Swine Line).
    "The government will spend about $430 billion this year on Medicare, which provides health coverage to 44 million elderly and disabled people. The sheer size of the program, with more than 1.2 billion claims filed each year, not only makes it ripe for fraud but for mistakes. The Office of Management and Budget estimates that payment errors total about $10.8 billion a year" (Associated Press).

    "The government paid more than $47 billion in questionable Medicare claims including medical treatment showing little relation to a patient's condition, wasting taxpayer dollars at a rate nearly three times the previous year" (Associated Press).

    "Medicare and Medicaid, which cover elderly and low-income patients respectively, eat up a growing portion of the federal budget. Investigations by Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK) point to as much as $60 billion a year in fraud, waste and overpayments between the two programs. And Coburn is likely underestimating the problem" (OBM Watch).

    The Tab*
    Wasteful Health Spending:
    $60 billion (fraud, waste, overpayments) + $100 billion (modest 15 percent cost reduction) + $15 billion (closing the 12 percent loophole) + $10 billion (unnecessary Medicare administrative and drug costs)
    Total $185 billion
    Running Tab: $352.5 billion +$185 billion = $537.5 billion
    (Government Accountability Office).



    Sources:

    "Medicare - I see (and pay) Dead People". Dave Williams. The Swine Line. July 9, 2008.
    <http://swineline.org/2008/07/09/medicare-i-see-and-pay-dead-people/>


    "Medicare Auditing Zealotry Wanted". Alexa Moutevelis. Associated Press. March 3, 2008.
    <http://go2.wordpress.com/?id=725X1342&site=cagwmedia.wordpress.com&url=http %3A%2F%2Fnews.aol.com%2Fhealth%2Fstory%2F_a%2Faudi ts-sting-hospitals-physicians%2F20080301073809990001>


    "Almost $50B in 'questionable' Medicare". Associated Press. November 14, 2009.
    <http://www.nypost.com/p/news/politics/almost_in_questionable_medicare_lA6Gt32D5rrvbAV0Z3 ljpO>


    Other Sources: Source list: OMB Watch, Tax Payers for Common Sense, Citizens Against Government Waste, Cato Institute, Heritage Foundation, Government Accountability Office

  4. #94
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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    It should be noted that Medicaid and Medicare are compleetly bankrupt.



    There must be a reason, Although, I just cant seem to put my finger on it..
    Eric,

    There is a solution although it will not be supported by the so called "fiscal conservatives".

    Raise taxes just like Reagan did!
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    That just means you wont admit you're wrong.
    HAH! Bollocks! Not at all. Don't go getting belligerent on me, Goobieman , we've had a useful exchange so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib
    We do not have a well-functioning society in this regard
    You're trying to show that some degree of inefficacy in one part of society indicates that society in general is not well-functioning, and then that correcting said inefficacy is necessary to have a well-functiong society in general.

    Your logic fails; it is no different than saying because your car radio doesn't work, your car doesnt run well, and then, in order for your car to run well, you must fix the radio. You might not like the fact your radio doesnt work, and you'd certainly LIKE to fix it, but it doesnt mean the car isnt running well.

    Necessity is a strong word. Your use of it does not meet its deninition.
    No, I am talking about society as a whole. The fabric of society is based on the well-being of its citizenry. If they are uneducated, that prevents them from being knowledgeable, if they are sick, that prevents them from working and contributing to society.

    A better analogy would be if the transmission was slipping. You can still go forward, but not as efficiently as you could if the transmission was fixed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Do I really need to? Where do you suppose our society would be if there were not basic education? I mean, other than non-existant.
    And dont forget -- the term I used was "our society".
    I think you should. I am saying that healthcare resembles education and you are objecting to that. What is it about education that you think makes it a necessity?

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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I disagree with any mandated health care position.

    If one does not want to have health care, they should be allowed to opt out. However, if they then get ill, under no circumstances should the government assist or subsidize their health expenses. They made a choice. They need to then take responsibility for that choice and manage their health care out of their own expenses.

    Also, doctors and hospitals should not be required to accept any "opt out" patients without ability to pay verification. IMO, this kind of thing will save the US more tax dollars than anything I've seen presented in health care reform.

    Do you agree with me?
    Why or why not?
    Your position is sound except for one point... and that is doctors refusing treatment in critical ER situations. They must accept patients who are dying of critical injuries. It would be against medical ethics not to. Even a broken bone can be life threatening if it nicks a nearby artery as it shatters, or an allergy that is causing physical distress.

    Given that, you would be hard pressed to define what could be considered "critical" and what isn't just based on initial appearance. Tests and reporting are required, as well as observation. This all requires money.

    People should not be able to opt out under those grounds, and frankly to assume they could is just arrogant. I think the health care legislation has its flaws, but if it's going to go into practice, then it should encompass everyone. People wanting to opt out mostly don't have medical experience and are doing it from a libertarian perspective; meanwhile they have no way of knowing what medical issues face them down the road.

    If you get critically injured, you will WANT care, regardless of what your position was beforehand. People without insurance now still get treated in such circumstances, but they can't pay their bills. This creates a burden on the entire system. That burden can only be plugged with mandated health care.

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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    It should be noted that Medicaid and Medicare are compleetly bankrupt.



    There must be a reason, Although, I just cant seem to put my finger on it...
    That's why we need to get those programs out of the hands of the federal government and into the hands of the states.

    I see it as a three step process, and I didn't mention the third step:
    1) state does not support compulsory healthcare - medicare and medicaid remain federal programs for recipients in that state.
    2) state initially has compulsory healthcare - federal health funds for medicare and medicaid go to the state.
    3) after a period of time (5 years?) for a compulsory healthcare state - taxes drop at the federal level and increase at the state level to pay for the replacement program to medicare and medicaid. Federal money stops.

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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    No, I am talking about society as a whole. The fabric of society is based on the well-being of its citizenry. If they are uneducated, that prevents them from being knowledgeable, if they are sick, that prevents them from working and contributing to society.
    Well then, if that's the case, its imposisble to argue that health care is a necessity, as people, on a societal level, are currently more than capable of 'contributing' -- and always have been, even when the idea of 'health care' was making sure you kept warm in the winter.

    You might argue that things might be 'better' if something were in place, but, as I suggested before, something that would make things better is a luxury, not a 'necessity'.

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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Eric,

    There is a solution although it will not be supported by the so called "fiscal conservatives".

    Raise taxes just like Reagan did!
    I fear we have no other option.

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    Re: Do you agree w/ my position on mandated health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Your position is sound except for one point... and that is doctors refusing treatment in critical ER situations. They must accept patients who are dying of critical injuries. It would be against medical ethics not to. Even a broken bone can be life threatening if it nicks a nearby artery as it shatters, or an allergy that is causing physical distress.
    Mandated by the state and mandated by ethics are different things.
    A health care provider must have the choice, and must make that choice knowing that he may not be compensated for his services.

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