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Thread: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

  1. #741
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    Cool Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Well, OK... but how does the absennce of proof equate to proof of absence?
    There was a phrase I heard when I was growing up it has not been used that much in today's society, but perhaps it would fit here,

    We don't know.
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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Well, OK... but how does the absennce of proof equate to proof of absence?
    Evidence of absence supports the notion of absence.

    E.G., if you claim you have a cat in your trunk and I open your trunk and there is no cat then that is definitive proof that no cat is visible in your trunk. If I search in your trunk and find no cat this supports the notion further that no cat is present in your trunk. If I then get heat sensors and sound detectors and still find no evidence of what manifestations a cat would leave in your trunk then this is yet further evidence for the absence of a cat in your trunk.

    If you now claim the cat is invisible, massless, heatless, and otherwise undetectable, then now all you've done is equivocate "cat" with this invisible, massless, heatless, and otherwise undetectabl being you claim is in your trunk.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Evidence of absence supports the notion of absence.
    "Supports the notion of absence" is not -proof- of absence.

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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Here's the problem with this whole "absence of proof" thing. The onus is on the theist, not the atheist.

    If the theist says that god exists, proper support for this claim cannot be the lack of "proof of absence" because it shifts the onus onto the atheist. Which forces the atheist to prove that nothing is there. This makes the argument assume that God already exists, which is a circular argument.

    If the theist is the one making the claim, then the theist needs to use proper support for this claim, and not just to shift the onus onto the atheist.
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    Here's the problem with this whole "absence of proof" thing. The onus is on the theist, not the atheist.
    Thats depends.
    If the theist says 'God exists' then it is up to him to prove it.
    If the atheist says 'God does not exist', it is up to him to prove it.

    There have been several posters here that happily claim that they can disprove God (not that they have had any success).

    If the theist says that god exists, proper support for this claim cannot be the lack of "proof of absence" because it shifts the onus onto the atheist.
    Yes. But 'absence of proof is not proof of absence' is best, and most properly used as the response to the atheists claim that there is no proof that God exists.

    My favorite counter to those that claim there is no God is the implication inherent to the Necessity of Reality found in that position -- that if not God, then everything that is, that has been and that will be is created by the Laws of PHysics.

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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    If the atheist says 'God does not exist', it is up to him to prove it.
    "God does not exist" is not a simple claim, it's a counter claim, specifically to the claim that "God exists." The onus is still on the theist.

    The initial point must always start at nothing, so that the null hypothesis can be used as a control.


    Yes. But 'absence of proof is not proof of absence' is best, and most properly used as the response to the atheists claim that there is no proof that God exists.
    When I hear someone using that line of logic, it just tells me that they don't have enough evidence to back up their claim and is trying to shift the onus onto their opponent.

    When the atheist points out that the theist lacks proof, and they pull out the old "absence of proof is not proof of absence" they're actually just begging the question.

    What I normally suggest to the theist is that they should find better evidence.

    My favorite counter to those that claim there is no God is the implication inherent to the Necessity of Reality found in that position -- that if not God, then everything that is, that has been and that will be is created by the Laws of PHysics.
    And how does the atheist react?
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    "God does not exist" is not a simple claim, it's a counter claim, specifically to the claim that "God exists." The onus is still on the theist.
    If the atheist initiates the claim, it is up to him to support it.

    When I hear someone using that line of logic, it just tells me that they don't have enough evidence to back up their claim and is trying to shift the onus onto their opponent.
    If the opponent makes the claim there there is no God, and tries to prove it by the absence of proof to that effect, then the theist, rightly, notes that this proves nothing.

    And how does the atheist react?
    Most of the time, they dont get it, at least initially.
    I then tell them that this means everything is set in stone, from the moment of the big bang. Everything.

    This then devolves into many different conversations, most of which have them trying to explain how free will can exist, even though -everything- is created by the laws of physics.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 12-04-09 at 04:05 PM.

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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    If the atheist initiates the claim, it is up to him to support it.


    If the opponent makes the claim there there is no God, and tries to prove it by the absence of proof to that effect, then the theist, rightly, notes that this proves nothing.
    When does the atheist initiate the claim? If the theist never claim that "God exists," then the atheist never would have made the counter claime that "God does not exist." The origin of the argument has always been started by the theist, thus the onus has always been on them.


    Most of the time, they dont get it, at least initially.
    I then tell them that this means everything is set in stone, from the moment of the big bang. Everything.

    This then devolves into many different conversations, most of which have them trying to explain how free will can exist, even thught -everything- is created by the laws of physics.
    It's like a video game. Ultimately, you have to follow the story in the game, but how you do it is up to you. Therefore, free will can exist, but the ultimate ending cannot be altered. What's wrong with this position? It seems logical to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    A person's beliefs, for whatever reason they form them and hold them, are none of anyone's damn business or concern unless said believer forces those beliefs upon others.

    Argument is now moot, as life on other planets as relating to a work of Terran historical fiction (or misinterpreted belief) is ricockulous.


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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    When does the atheist initiate the claim?
    A zillion different ways.
    Starting out a conversatin with "There is no God" is one of them.

    It's like a video game. Ultimately, you have to follow the story in the game, but how you do it is up to you
    That's the point -- its not.
    If -everything- is created by the laws of physics, then nothing is up to you, it is all set in stone. "Everything" would include your thoughts, your actions, etc. All of it is pre-ordained and unchangeable.

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