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Thread: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

  1. #631
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by presluc View Post
    Well I have a question.
    If in fact logic plays a key role on anything possible then how come the Big Bang therory is considered possible?
    You can not have an explosion without energy +matter.
    Most Big Bang theories posit that all of the matter and all of the energy currently found in the universe had condensed/was compressed into a single point.

    Thus, mass + energy.

  2. #632
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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Of course. But there cannot be multiple realities.
    Oh, I see what you mean. But what I meant earlier was the possibility of differences in properties of logic. We form our sense of logic based on the reality in which we live, so it follows that the properties of logic may not be the same in a different universe. Or it may be the same, but the ultimate answer is that we cannot know. Therefore the possibility is always there.

    If God is omnipresent, and therefore exist in all universes at the same time, God may be able to do things that are impossible pertaining to this universe, but it could be possible in other universes. Which leads God being able to do the impossible (as defined in our universe).
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

  3. #633
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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by presluc View Post
    If in fact logic plays a key role on anything possible then how come the Big Bang therory is considered possible?


    You can not have an explosion without energy +matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Most Big Bang theories posit that all of the matter and all of the energy currently found in the universe had condensed/was compressed into a single point.

    Not only that, matter and energy cannot be separated. Energy is really the exchange in electrons, which themselves are made of matter. The two terms are the same things, it's just that energy is describing an event that the object goes through. Matter is simply the "object."
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

  4. #634
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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by presluc View Post
    Ok you want basis you got basis, but it's so easy.

    1 Humans kill each other for just about any reason you could name.
    Is this logical?
    1) You are using the term "logical" colloquially rather than in terms of referring to the system of formal logic.
    2) Killing another can be justified. It depends on the circumstances.
    3) How is this at all relevant to your previous claims?

    2. In 1945 it was concidered logical to have a segregated army, in 1955 it was concidered logical to have segregated schools.
    Today these are not logical that is unless you are a bigot or a raicist.
    POINT MADE LOGIC CHANGES.
    1) Logic, as in what is deemed morally permissable or impermissable or "common sense" changes. What is logical, as in what things conform or violate the system of formal logic has not changed.
    You need to understand the difference between logic as a system of reasoning with well defined rules, and logic as used colloquially to mean "common sense" or moral"
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  5. #635
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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The part in bold are just plain false. If it is impossible, that literally means "not possible". The only way something can be done is if it is possible to be done. Something is only impossible if it is not possible under any circumstances.

    You have simply written gibberish and called it "correct". Calling it such does not make it such.
    [/quote]
    You are correct, technically. What Goobie should have said is:
    An omnipotent being can do what is logically impossible. That is, his actions are impossible with respect to logic but not impossible within reality.


    PS- I haven't forgotten about your posts. Its just that I I am posting by phone at work so only short replies can be made until I find time at home to reply more thoroughly to the other posts.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  6. #636
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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Sure it is. It excludes the things that are not logocally possible.
    As anythng is possible, 'logically possible' is an arbitrary subset of what is possible.
    Anything that is possible must therefore be logically possible. It's the way logic works. Most people simply do not understand what logic actually is, so they misuse the term.



    Is it possible to defy/manipulate the laws of physics? Logic?
    Why not?
    With physics, it's entriely possible that the "laws" as we call them are not universally true across all of reality in all situations. So "defying" them is potentially a matter of the right situation.

    The "laws" of logic can't really be "defied" by an occurrence. What is logical will be logical, what is illogical will be illogical. The only thing that could happen in a situation that would be construed as a "defiance" of logic would be thee realization that what was once thought to be logical (as in sound) was actually illogical (as in not sound).

    Logic is dictated by reality, logic does not act upon reality in any way. Logic is simply a way to structure an argument. Such an argument must be both valid and true in order to be classified as "logical". If something occurs that "defies" what was thought to be "logical", it automatically means that what was thought to be logical was actually illogical.

    Now, someone can choose to present an argument that defies the laws of logic. For example:

    Premise 1: An omnipotent being has unlimited power.
    Premise 2: Something with unlimited power can do anything
    Conclusion: Therefore, an Omnipotent being can do the impossible.

    This is a pure defiance of logic because it posits that, in this situation, it would be possible to do that which is not possible. The very fact that it would be possible means it cannot be "not possible".

    That is a defiance of logic. What does that illogical argument mean? It only really means that the person who presents such an argument has presented an illogical argument. Nothing more, nothing less. Reality is unaltered by this illogical argument. Such a person can continue to try and pretend such an argument makes sense if they so choose and the world will still not be affected by the illogical nature of the argument.

    The conclusion can never be true because it contradicts itself. It is impossible for something to be both possible and impossible at the same time. This is because of the nature of the words "possible" and "impossible". Under no circumstances can something be possible and impossible. This is not because of anything more than the definitions of the words. One destroys the other.

    But even more to the point, impossible and possible are adjectives that describe something. You cannot use an adjective incorrectly (in the case of the conclusion of the flawed argument above, as a noun). "Impossile" is not a thing. It is not part of "anything". Incorrectly adding an article to such a word and trying to use it as a noun doesn't change the fact that the word is an adjective being used incorrectly.

    Just as illogical was used incorrectly in these debates, so is impossible.

    These words do nothing more than describe the state of something. If something is impossible, that means it is something that can't be done. You cannot do something that is unable to be done because that turns that something (changes the state of that something) into something that can be done.

    So this whole debate is pure nonsense and it is based entirely on people using adjectives as nouns.

    That's just silly.

  7. #637
    Matthew 16:3

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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    You are correct, technically. What Goobie should have said is:
    An omnipotent being can do what is logically impossible. That is, his actions are impossible with respect to logic but not impossible within reality.[/QUOTE]

    That doesn't fix it at all.

    If it is not impossible in reality, then it is not logically impossible.

  8. #638
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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    That doesn't fix it at all.

    If it is not impossible in reality, then it is not logically impossible.
    You are assuming that logic is absolutely infallible with regards to describing reality. I don't believe there is any way such absolute certainty can be known. I'll comment more on this later.
    Last edited by scourge99; 11-25-09 at 03:52 PM.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  9. #639
    Matthew 16:3

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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    Oh, I see what you mean. But what I meant earlier was the possibility of differences in properties of logic. We form our sense of logic based on the reality in which we live, so it follows that the properties of logic may not be the same in a different universe. Or it may be the same, but the ultimate answer is that we cannot know. Therefore the possibility is always there.

    If God is omnipresent, and therefore exist in all universes at the same time, God may be able to do things that are impossible pertaining to this universe, but it could be possible in other universes. Which leads God being able to do the impossible (as defined in our universe).
    It's all based on the way logic works. It can only be truly logical if the premises are true in reality.

    It doesn't matter if in our part of reality such a thing is considered impossible. If the premise used is false in any part of reality, it is false in all parts of reality.

    For example:

    If I make an argument using the following premise:

    Premise 1: The sky is blue.

    This statement is true on Earth, but false elsewhere, such as mars.

    So if I were to use that premise in a logical argument such as:

    Premise 1: The sky is blue.
    Premise 2: Mars has a sky
    Conclusion: Mars' sky is blue

    I have not created a logically sound argument. This is because my initial premise was false. The real premise is:

    The Earth's sky usually appears blue.

    This premise is true. It doesn't make the mistake of attributing a quality to the sky that is false (the Earth's sky is not blue, it simply scatters blue light giving the appearance of blueness in daylight).

    The incomplete premise means that even if I use the argument in a logical framework relative to Earth, I am actually using a false premise and have thus created an unsound argument.

    It would not matter if there are other realities that existed, the only way something is logically impossible is if it is impossible across all of reality in every circumstance.

    To formulate a legitimately sound logical argument about possibility, all variables must be accounted for. The specific situations where something is logically impossible must be stated within the premises otherwise the argument is unsound and the deduction that something is logically impossible is invalidated.

    Not only does an incomplete premise negate soundness, it usually negates validity as well, thus making the argument entirely illogical.

  10. #640
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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    You are assuming that logic is absolutely infallible with regards to describing reality. I don't believe there is any way such absolute certainty can be known. I'll comment more on this later.
    I'm assuming no more than a true premise is true. Nothing more, nothing less. Incomplete premises mean that the argument is unsound and invalid.

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