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Thread: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

  1. #401
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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by presluc View Post
    My opoligies sir, you are right and I am wrong.

    I never was one to back from a mistake I made.

    Perhaps it is because I have faith in God and get a little frustrated by some of the athiest and intellectuals queestioning my faith .
    only you can question your faith.

    While some so called theories are often blured into fact although in fact there are still a theory, or speculation a beleif with no proof.
    scientific theories often have evidence to support them. Scientific theories cannot be "proven", only supported. "Proofs" are for math. "Proof", is better known as "evidence".



    Should my faith in God be concidered that much differant?
    Theists often equiovocate with the word "faith". So it depends on how you personally define "faith".

    If your faith is belief based on such things as"good feelings", intuition, desire, blind belief.... Then it is vastly different.

    Atheistic faith or scientific faith is mere confidence based on limited but repeatedable results. It is defeatable given new evidence or reason.

    It is not the type of faith Paul describes in Hebrews: of things unseen, of that which is hoped for.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I like how you just shut down your own argument by providing a factual history of the Santa tradition
    I like how you didn't understand a thing I said. And now you think mythology is factual? Wow
    Last edited by paris; 11-19-09 at 07:00 PM.

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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Huh? The sun does go up and down in the first place, it only appears so due to the rotation of the earth. Relative to the earth the sun is in a fixed position.
    First I would like to sincerely thank you for bringing these challenges to the table. Conversations like these force me to take a critical look at what I believe and see if I can actually validate those beliefs.

    I'll happily address your post in it's entirety tonight, however I wanted to chime in on the story of the sun seemingly standing still, as I find it to be one of the more intriguing biblical events from an astronomical point of view.

    We agree that the earth did not stand still, as the consequences of suddenly stopping Earth's rotation would have ended civilization as we know it.

    ***
    To my theist brothers and sisters out there, yes, God can do any logically possible, however defying his own laws of physics does not appear to be one logically possible option. Therefore I do not accept that God simply made the Earth stop without consequence. That notion, I'm afraid, is to ethereal for me to accept.

    Even God is bound by God's laws.


    ***
    IMO the challenge is to explain how the sun could appear to stand still while the earth is still moving. To me, the best answer is to change how the Earth moved.

    An exaggerated precession, or torque-induced precession (gyroscopic precession), is the phenomenon in which the axis of a spinning object (e.g. a part of a gyroscope) "wobbles" when a torque is applied to it.

    From the link:
    Of the Earth's axis

    The Earth goes through one complete precession cycle in a period of approximately 25,800 years, during which the positions of stars as measured in the equatorial coordinate system will slowly change; the change is actually due to the change of the coordinates. Over this cycle the Earth's north axial pole moves from where it is now, within 1 of Polaris, in a circle around the ecliptic pole, with an angular radius of about 23.5 degrees (or approximately 23 degrees 27 arcminutes [1]). The shift is 1 degree in 180 years, where the angle is taken from the observer, not from the center of the circle. The precession of Earths axis of rotation with respect to inertial space is also called the precession of the equinoxes.

    <snip>

    Discovery of the precession of the equinoxes is generally attributed to the ancient Greek astronomer Hipparchus (ca. 150 B.C.), though the difference between the sidereal and tropical years was known to Aristarchus of Samos much earlier (ca. 280 B.C.). It was later explained by Newtonian physics. The Earth has a nonspherical shape, being oblate spheroid, bulging outward at the equator. The gravitational tidal forces of the Moon and Sun apply torque as they attempt to pull the equatorial bulge into the plane of the ecliptic. The portion of the precession due to the combined action of the Sun and the Moon is called lunisolar precession
    .
    If this wobble were great enough to nearly stand the Earth end over end before correcting itself, it is possible to keep sunlight on the same surfaces of the globe for the duration of the wobble.

    Without direct evidence, I can only speculate that a polar shift may have applied enough torque to send Earth into an exaggerated gyroscopic precession. I do not claim that this is in fact how it actually happened, only that it is my unqualified yet reasonably researched best guess.

    If you're interested in exploring this event in further detail, I would be happy to join a relevant thread on it.

    Additional reference:
    It is reported that there is independent historical confirmation of a long day in the writings of other people. See Arthur Gook, Can A Young Man Trust His Bible?, (London: Pickering and Inglis Ltd.). Gook comments as follows: "There were three ancient nations in the East which kept records of their history - the Greeks, The Egyptians and the Chinese.

    Each of these nations has a record of an unnaturally long day.

    • Herodotus, 480 B.C. a Greek who is called 'the father of history,' tells us that some priests in Egypt showed him a record telling of the lengthening of a day far beyond the twenty-four hours.

    • In the Chinese ancient writings it is plainly stated that such an occurrence took place in the reign of their Emperor Yeo, and their genealogical tables show that an Emperor of this name was reigning in China in the time of Joshua.

    • Lord Kingsborough, who has made a special study of the aboriginal Indians in America, states that the Mexicans, who reached a high state of civilization long before America was discovered by Europeans, have a record that the sun 'stood still' for a whole day in the year which they call 'seven rabbits.'


    Now, the year 'seven rabbits' corresponds exactly with the time that Joshua and the Israelites were conquering Palestine."
    p. 43


    The Miraculous - Joshua 10:13
    Any dismissal of the account in Joshua 10:13 must explain why ancient Egypt, ancient China and ancient America recorded the same event, at the same time.
    Last edited by Jerry; 11-19-09 at 11:30 PM.

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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    ***
    To my theist brothers and sisters out there, yes, God can do any logically possible, however defying his own laws of physics does not appear to be one logically possible option. Therefore I do not accept that God simply made the Earth stop without consequence. That notion, I'm afraid, is to ethereal for me to accept.

    Even God is bound by God's laws.
    Why? Why can't God do the illogical?

    It appears you are arguing that your understanding of such a God is not omnipotent which clashes with many mainstream ideas.

    Now, I certainly agree that a non-omnipotent God makes a heck of a lot more sense then a omnipotent one, but last I checked, there is nothing preventing God from being illogical and nonsensical.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    First I would like to sincerely thank you for bringing these challenges to the table. Conversations like these force me to take a critical look at what I believe and see if I can actually validate those beliefs.

    I'll happily address your post in it's entirety tonight, however I wanted to chime in on the story of the sun seemingly standing still, as I find it to be one of the more intriguing biblical events from an astronomical point of view.

    We agree that the earth did not stand still, as the consequences of suddenly stopping Earth's rotation would have ended civilization as we know it.

    ***
    To my theist brothers and sisters out there, yes, God can do any logically possible, however defying his own laws of physics does not appear to be one logically possible option. Therefore I do not accept that God simply made the Earth stop without consequence. That notion, I'm afraid, is to ethereal for me to accept.

    Even God is bound by God's laws.

    ***
    IMO the challenge is to explain how the sun could appear to stand still while the earth is still moving. To me, the best answer is to change how the Earth moved.

    An exaggerated precession, or torque-induced precession (gyroscopic precession), is the phenomenon in which the axis of a spinning object (e.g. a part of a gyroscope) "wobbles" when a torque is applied to it.

    From the link:


    Without direct evidence, I can only speculate that a polar shift may have applied enough torque to send Earth into an exaggerated gyroscopic precession. I do not claim that this is in fact how it actually happened, only that it is my unqualified yet reasonably researched best guess.
    Well let's assume that is correct and that this phenomenon would make it appear as though the sun stopped moving, well there's still two problems 1) that is not what the bible says, what the bible says is that the sun stopped not that the earth shifted its rotation, and 2) the sun isn't moving in the first place.
    Last edited by Agent Ferris; 11-19-09 at 11:28 PM.

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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    (shrug) I have no problem with believing that God could and did suspend the "law" of inertia (etc) to suit His purposes. If I assume an omnipotent God then there is no reason for me to believe that He is bound by so-called "laws of physics" which He created.

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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by presluc View Post
    My opoligies sir, you are right and I am wrong.

    I never was one to back from a mistake I made.

    Perhaps it is because I have faith in God and get a little frustrated by some of the athiest and intellectuals queestioning my faith .
    While some so called theories are often blured into fact although in fact there are still a theory, or speculation a beleif with no proof.
    Should my faith in God be concidered that much differant?
    You make Grammar Nazis weep.

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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Well let's assume that is correct and that this phenomenon would make it appear as though the sun stopped moving, well there's still two problems 1) that is not what the bible says, what the bible says is that the sun stopped not that the earth shifted its rotation...
    That's what the witness said.

    The bible does not offer an objective technical analysis of the event, or barely anything else for that matter. In fact I would dare say that the only technical account in the entire bible regards the creation of alters, temples and arcs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    and 2) the sun isn't moving in the first place.
    You know this, I know this, but we both still call it a sun-set, don't we

    Since we know the sun isn't moving, we therefore know the story describes how the event appeared from the ground, just as we call it a "sun-set" or "sun-rise". When we say these things we are not objectively describing the event. We are describing our relationship to the event.
    Last edited by Jerry; 11-19-09 at 11:40 PM.

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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    (shrug) I have no problem with believing that God could and did suspend the "law" of inertia (etc) to suit His purposes. If I assume an omnipotent God then there is no reason for me to believe that He is bound by so-called "laws of physics" which He created.
    Fair enough. Except you run into a problem. There's no evidence of any suspension of the laws of physics. Therefore, God, if it did that, covered up the evidence and made it look like nothing out of the ordinary happened. That is a an act of deception which runs contrary to the nature of a perfect being. Young Earth Creationists run into this problem all of the time and don't understand how they just argued their God is a liar.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    That's what the witness said.
    But this is in a book which is supposedly from the lips of an omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient being.

    The bible does not offer an objective technical analysis of the event, or barely anything else for that matter. In fact I would dare say that the only technical account in the entire bible regards the creation of alters, temples and arcs.
    I don't need it to be technical, all I need is for it to be logically consistent, the only reason why it would assert that the sun stopped is because it is describing a geocentric universe in which the sun revolves around the earth rather than the earth revolving around the sun.

    You know this, I know this, but we both still call it a sun-set, don't we
    But I'm not writing a book for all people for all time forever and ever.

    Since we know the sun isn't moving, we therefore know the story describes how the event appeared from the ground, just as we call it a "sun-set" or "sun-rise". When we say these things we are not objectively describing the event. We are describing our relationship to the event.
    But once again this is supposed to be the divinely inspired word of god.

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