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Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

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Goobieman said:
Being omnipotent means that you can both break and not break the rules at the same time.
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Mind. Blown.

Mind+Blown.jpg
 
Goobieman said:
Power limited to only the logically possible is limted.
Omnipotence is having power not limited.

And really...
Having the power to defy logic seems impossible because of the limits of the human mind. It is no different than the classic 'flatlander' scenario where the inhabitants of flatland cannot conceive of what we call 'up'.

To believe that God is limited to the limits we place on the universe due to our understanding of same is rather narcisisitic.
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Omnipotence means everything is logically possible. Even making a rock so massive that the omnipotent being could not lift it.

It's actually pretty easy. Create the Rock, fail to lift it once, then succeed to lift it the next time.

/dilemma ;)
 
Tucker Case said:
Omnipotence means everything is logically possible. Even making a rock so massive that the omnipotent being could not lift it.

It's actually pretty easy. Create the Rock, fail to lift it once, then succeed to lift it the next time.

/dilemma ;)
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Mind. Blown. Again.

Mind+Blown.jpg
 
Goobieman said:
Not sure how there is a necessary relationship here.
Being able to break the rules of logic is an inherent part of omnipotence.
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Well if you're going to describe omnipotence in that manner, why go through the charades and pretenses of trying to be logical. Why go through the trouble of establishing logical evidences and such?

If God doesn't follow the rules of logic, why use logic to explain it?
 
Lightdemon said:
Well if you're going to describe omnipotence in that manner, why go through the charades and pretenses of trying to be logical. Why go through the trouble of establishing logical evidences and such?

If God doesn't follow the rules of logic, why use logic to explain it?
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God can NARFLE THE GARTHOK! He needs not puny human logic!

Does his quickery biffle you?

Fribbel Micdemort sandasar zuping.

It's hard to explain not using logic...
 
Goobieman said:
Power limited to only the logically possible is limted.
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That's right, but the Webster definition of "omnipotent" allows limitation so long as any such limitation is outside of what can be don.

Goobieman said:
Omnipotence is having power not limited.
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God can do everything which can be don, QED God is omnipotent.

Goobieman said:
And really...
Having the power to defy logic seems impossible because of the limits of the human mind. It is no different than the classic 'flatlander' scenario where the inhabitants of flatland cannot conceive of what we call 'up'.
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I don't get the reference, sorry.

Goobieman said:
To believe that God is limited to the limits we place on the universe due to our understanding of same is rather narcisisitic.
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Good thing I never did any such thing, then :2wave:
 
Jerry said:
One does not have to be able to do anything and everything at all what-so-ever to be omnipotent.
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I'd like to see the dictionary you are using.

One needs only virtually unlimited authority or influence.
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But that renders them limited and therefore without capacity to do anything.

What you describe is the capacity to do somethings. That's hardly "All powerful."

In this universe God has unlimited authority or influence. The rules of this universe do not allow a 4-sided triangle to exist, therefor God does not need to be able to create a 4-sided triangle in order to be omnipotent.
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Since when was God bound by the laws of his universe?

Your argument places limitations upon God that are inherently not there.
 
obvious Child said:
I'd like to see the dictionary you are using.
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Webster is the accepted credable dictionary freely available to everyone online.

omnipotent - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

obvious Child said:
But that renders them limited and therefore without capacity to do anything.
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The ability to do what can not be don is not a requirement to be omnipotent.

So long as one can do everything which can be don, one is omnipotent.

obvious Child said:
What you describe is the capacity to do somethings. That's hardly "All powerful."
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If one can do anything which can be don, one is "all-powerful".

obvious Child said:
Since when was God bound by the laws of his universe?
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Since always.

obvious Child said:
Your argument places limitations upon God that are inherently not there.
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My argument describes the limitations on God witch were already there.

I could take your argument seriously if you took an existing limitation cited by Christians on God. This whole 4-sided triangle thing is just silliness.
 
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Jerry said:
Webster is the accepted credable dictionary freely available to everyone online.

omnipotent - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
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Hmmm.

[ame=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:eek:fficial&hs=1kR&defl=en&q=define:eek:mnipotent&ei=sFALS-j4GoOAsgO6-vieAw&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CAcQkAE]define:eek:mnipotent - Google Search[/ame]

Looks like I win. As usual.

The ability to do what can not be don is not a requirement to be omnipotent.

So long as one can do everything which can be don, one is omnipotent.
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Therefore you argue that God is indeed limited? That it is prohibited from engaging in certain actions?

A yes or no answer would be appreciated.

Since always.
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Descartes suggests otherwise.

Furthermore you are indeed arguing that there is something above God, something that limits God's capacity. That suggests your view of God is, to some, heretical. If God is thereby limited by Logic, then Logic is above God.

My argument describes the limitations on God witch were already there.

I could take your argument seriously if you took an existing limitation cited by Christians on God. This whole 4-sided triangle thing is just silliness.
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Except that the limitation on God to deal with the paradox creates bigger problems.

If God is allegedly the most powerful being in existence responsible for all, the notion that God is somehow limited implicitly argues that God is indeed not the creator of all as there is something above God that limits its capacities.
 
In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth. The bible then goes on to tall us what came next for our little blue marble. No place that i am aware of does it say only the Earth. There are countless planets in the Universe that we can look at as pert of that creation of the Heavens.

If we are to believe in God we must then believe that the laws of nature were also a divine creation along with the laws of physics. The laws of physics leads us to postulate that since we know gravity's effect is in direct relation to the mass of a planet, beings from another world would come in sizes consistent with the relative gravitational pull of that planet. Therefore to find intelligent life that was relatively close to our size and make up their home planet would necessarily have to be close to the size of earth.

Then you get into whether they might be carbon based as we are our of some other make up.

I believe the chances are we will shortly find life within our solar system of a primitive nature and that will signle that the Universe is in fact teaming with life in various forms.

Chances are going on very close to ZERO any life we ever find made a primitive crop circle. That is a ludicrous notion.
:aliens1::aliens3:
 
obvious Child said:
Hmmm.

define:eek:mnipotent - Google Search

Looks like I win. As usual.
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:lol:

obvious Child said:
Therefore you argue that God is indeed limited? That it is prohibited from engaging in certain actions?

A yes or no answer would be appreciated.
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Yes.

God is limited, I've said so many times on this thread. There are things God can not do.

Since the things God can not do are things which can not be don at all, God is still omnipotent.

If the things God can not do were possible, then God would not be omnipotent.

obvious Child said:
Descartes suggests otherwise.
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I'm not sure if I could care less, or even if I know who that is, but I am sure that you're bringing up a tangent, so I'm ignoring it.

obvious Child said:
Furthermore you are indeed arguing that there is something above God, something that limits God's capacity. That suggests your view of God is, to some, heretical. If God is thereby limited by Logic, then Logic is above God.
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You're introducing a dynemic into the discussion which I never have.

"Above" is your word, not mine, so if you want to make that argument, that's fair game, but please do not misrepresent my argument by claiming I said there was anything "above" God.

Logic is not a being to hold authority.

obvious Child said:
Except that the limitation on God to deal with the paradox creates bigger problems.
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There is no paradox.

obvious Child said:
If God is allegedly the most powerful being in existence responsible for all, the notion that God is somehow limited implicitly argues that God is indeed not the creator of all as there is something above God that limits its capacities.
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That simply doesn't follow. I mean you're taking two completely alien concepts and composing sentences pretending they have anything to do with each other.
 
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Jerry said:
:l
God is limited, I've said so many times on this thread. There are things God can not do.

Since the things God can not do are things which can not be don at all, God is still omnipotent.

If the things God can not do were possible, then God would not be omnipotent.
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I think the dilemma here is that people seem to be presuming that conceptualizing the existence of something which cannot exist doesn't change the fact that it simply cannot exist.

An omnipotent being has unlimited power to do anything and everything that can be done.

An omnipotent being does not have unlimited power to do anything and everything that cannot be done.

Such a being can do everything that can be done. The fact that something simply cannot do something doesn't place a limitation upon the power of the omnipotent being.

For example, an omnipotent being cannot make a yellow circle that is a blue square. That's because a yellow circle that is a blue square cannot exist.

Some things just simply cannot be done. It is not a limitation upon teh omnipotent being to be unable to do the impossible.
 
Tucker Case said:
I think the dilemma here is that people seem to be presuming that conceptualizing the existence of something which cannot exist doesn't change the fact that it simply cannot exist.

An omnipotent being has unlimited power to do anything and everything that can be done.

An omnipotent being does not have unlimited power to do anything and everything that cannot be done.

Such a being can do everything that can be done. The fact that something simply cannot do something doesn't place a limitation upon the power of the omnipotent being.

For example, an omnipotent being cannot make a yellow circle that is a blue square. That's because a yellow circle that is a blue square cannot exist.

Some things just simply cannot be done. It is not a limitation upon teh omnipotent being to be unable to do the impossible.
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It is irrational to demand of a logical being to perform the illogical.
 
Jerry said:
If the things God can not do were possible, then God would not be omnipotent.
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Okay. While that limits discussion of what God is, that is the only logical way to approach the trait.

I'm not sure if I could care less, or even if I know who that is, but I am sure that you're bringing up a tangent, so I'm ignoring it.
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You really don't know who that is?

You're introducing a dynemic into the discussion which I never have.
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You never did explicitly. But by arguing that the illogical cannot be performed by God, you are indeed arguing that God is bound by something above itself, something it cannot change.

Logic is not a being to hold authority.
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Not in a traditional sense no.

There is no paradox.
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Under your limited definition no.

That simply doesn't follow. I mean you're taking two completely alien concepts and composing sentences pretending they have anything to do with each other.
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Yes it does. If God is allegedly the highest, most powerful concept out there, but it is limited in capacity by logic, then how can God be the highest, most powerful concept when itself is bound by logic?
 
Tucker Case said:
I think the dilemma here is that people seem to be presuming that conceptualizing the existence of something which cannot exist doesn't change the fact that it simply cannot exist.

An omnipotent being has unlimited power to do anything and everything that can be done.

An omnipotent being does not have unlimited power to do anything and everything that cannot be done.

Such a being can do everything that can be done. The fact that something simply cannot do something doesn't place a limitation upon the power of the omnipotent being.

For example, an omnipotent being cannot make a yellow circle that is a blue square. That's because a yellow circle that is a blue square cannot exist.

Some things just simply cannot be done. It is not a limitation upon teh omnipotent being to be unable to do the impossible.
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All you are doing is redefining omnipotence to fit a logical view. There is absolutely nothing other then human desires to deal with the potential faults of God that argues that God is bound by logic. Basically you want God to be logical as an illogical God creates significant problems.

And yes, if there is something that limits the power of an omnipotent being then there is a limitation! Your argument dictates that illogical/nonsensical acts cannot be performed and you then define the concept of God to fit that belief. Except that your original premise that the illogical/nonsensical acts cannot be performed is itself begging the question. You first assume that they cannot be performed and then make your view of God fit that notion.

Neither you nor Jerry have first proven that illogical/nonsensical acts cannot be performed.

I have constantly asked why God could not do it, but have received no answer as to why the acts themselves cannot be performed. Only that God cannot perform such acts.
 
obvious Child said:
Under your limited definition no.
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I'm sorry did the website list me as an author? It's not MY definition. It's Webster's definition.

obvious Child said:
Yes it does. If God is allegedly the highest, most powerful concept out there, but it is limited in capacity by logic, then how can God be the highest, most powerful concept when itself is bound by logic?
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"I'm still not going to accept anything you say regardless" clause noted.

obvious Child said:
Yes it does. If God is allegedly the highest, most powerful concept out there, but it is limited in capacity by logic, then how can God be the highest, most powerful concept when itself is bound by logic?
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Redundant qualifier meant to confuse the casual reader noted.

obvious Child said:
Yes it does. If God is allegedly the highest, most powerful concept out there, but it is limited in capacity by logic, then how can God be the highest, most powerful concept when itself is bound by logic?
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"Being", not "concept". We are not speaking of anything abstract, but a literal being.

obvious Child said:
Yes it does. If God is allegedly the highest, most powerful concept out there, but it is limited in capacity by logic, then how can God be the highest, most powerful concept when itself is bound by logic?
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The measurements which define "highest, most powerful" do themselves only exist within a logical construct.

The simple act of describing God as "highest, most powerful" necessarily encapsulates God withing the realm of logic.
 
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"Any discussion outside of a logical framework is inherently irrational and thus not to be taken seriously. "

Meaning, you only want to deal with the logical views of God despite having no argument to prove that the illogical and nonsensical views of God are not inherently correct.

While our measurements do exist only in a logical construct, that does not equate to God not being able to do the illogical.

You are doing exactly what Tucker does. You don't actually have any argument as to why God can't do the illogical. You just fit it to suit your beliefs. That's fine. Just admit that.
 
obvious Child said:
"Any discussion outside of a logical framework is inherently irrational and thus not to be taken seriously. "

Meaning, you only want to deal with the logical views of God despite having no argument to prove that the illogical and nonsensical views of God are not inherently correct.

While our measurements do exist only in a logical construct, that does not equate to God not being able to do the illogical.
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A logical discussion necessarily precludes the illogical.

obvious Child said:
You are doing exactly what Tucker does. You don't actually have any argument as to why God can't do the illogical. You just fit it to suit your beliefs. That's fine. Just admit that.
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As I've said many times: God can not do those things because those things can not be don at all.

God's abilities fulfill the definition of the word "omnipotent", hence we can accurately describe God as "omnipotent".
 
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Jerry said:
A logical discussion necessarily precludes the illogical.
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True, but we first assume a logical discussion on a being we have not first proven to be logical. As I stated earlier, that cuts out a significant portion of what God is/could be. In a sense, we ourselves are limiting God.
 
obvious Child said:
True, but we first assume a logical discussion on a being we have not first proven to be logical.
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Anything at all whatsoever: if it exists in this universe, it therefore must be logical and have a perfectly rational nature.

Otherwise it could not exist in this universe.

Rather we understand that logic or nature is another matter.
 
Tucker Case said:
Omnipotence means everything is logically possible.
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That would be limited.
Omnipotent is unlimited power.

You may not understand how The Omnipotent defies the laws of logic -- but that in no way means He cannot do it.
 
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