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The right to -not- exercise a right?

Do you have the right to NOT exercise a right?


  • Total voters
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One has to understand that freedom is not an absolute in populations greater than one.

I took out all of your examples, which were excellent by the way, but this is the point that I've been trying to get at. Just because we have various and sundry "freedoms" does not mean that those freedoms are unrestricted. In fact, there isn't an unrestricted freedom in existence. The idea that these rights are magically valid and unrestricted for everyone, just on someone's say-so is ludicrous.
 
Ikari said:
You refuse to listen and try to at least understand in some way my argument.

That's because you've done nothing whatsoever to back up your argument, you just keep repeating it over and over and over as if that will somehow make it so. Even though people keep asking you to back up your assertions, you ignore it and purposely don't do it, mostly because you can't. How is anyone supposed to take such an argument seriously? It sounds more like a religious faith than it does a rational, well-reasoned, well-supported argument. Maybe that's really what you're trying to say, that you support the Holy Church of Libertarianism.

If you choose to engage in honest, open debate to try to understand at least in some part where I am coming from; perhaps we can pick it up there.

In honest, open debates, people actually defend their positions with evidence and reason. When do you think you might give that a shot?
 
Except I did and now it's your turn.

You have proven the laws of thermodynamics from first principle! Wow, since it's never been done before, color me impressed. Can I see these proofs?

Or will you, as I suspect, try to wiggle out of it because you know it can't be done. Bald assertion doesn't make something true, but apparently that's all you've got.

No, I've pointed out everything already. You're defining "rights" through utility. But those aren't "rights". Rights are innate and inalienable to humans. What you define are societal norms and privilege. Many philosophies have rooted rights in the person; with life, liberty, and property being amongst the highest held. Just because I can be killed doesn't mean I don't have the right to life. If everyone else decided that there is no right to life, it doesn't mean that I don't have the right to life. But according to you, that's what happens.

You want to say that all I've been doing is making assertions, but that's all you've done as well. When you give assertions to societal norms and morality defining rights, all you are doing is associating action with a "right" (again, that's not a right, but if you want to continue misusing the word; have fun). I gave you the thought exercise already. If someone threatens my life, I always have cause to fight it. If someone tries to steal from me, I always have cause to defend it. If someone tries to enslave me, I always have cause to resist it. That's because all humans share the same base rights, rights rooted in life, liberty, and property. These are the natural states, and while maybe I can be killed, or my stuff can be stolen, or maybe I could be enslaved; it doesn't mean that I don't have those rights. Those rights are innate to the person.

As I said, your line of thought is amongst the most dangerous. It gives too much credit to the authority. Too much potential for abuse. It doesn't recognize humans as anything other than animals roaming about. Who's base "rights" are defined not through an absolute, an understanding of humanity and acknowledging that humans are humans and essentially the same; but rather through a floppy definition which allows those with the guns to define the "rights". A right cannot be floppy, floppy things tend to occupy the privilege category. As humans have evolved and our societies became more complex, and we were able to examine interactions and behaviors we discovered the base rights of humans. In the natural state all people are equal and independent, and all have the right to defend life, liberty, and property. While in the constrained state often brought with government these can be infringed upon, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Maybe you can read some Hobbes and Locke and come back. Then, even if you still don't agree, you can maybe be less of an ass about it.
 
Except I did and now it's your turn. Or will you, as I suspect, try to wiggle out of it because you know it can't be done. Bald assertion doesn't make something true, but apparently that's all you've got.
I'll give you something very simple to do then:
Cite the text of the US Constitution that grants the people of the United States their rights.
 
I'll give you something very simple to do then:
Cite the text of the US Constitution that grants the people of the United States their rights.

Constitution'd


Though the only part I could think of remotely like this would be Article IV Sec. 2.
 
Constitution'd
Though the only part I could think of remotely like this would be Article IV Sec. 2.
And -that- is only barely remotely close.
 
I'll give you something very simple to do then:
Cite the text of the US Constitution that grants the people of the United States their rights.

Interesting how you mention only the Constitution and not, for instance, the Bill of Rights. That's like saying "show me in Harry Potter where the founding fathers granted rights". If you only allow documents where you know it wasn't done, you can't declare victory. :spin:
 
Interesting how you mention only the Constitution and not, for instance, the Bill of Rights.
All of the amendments, including the Bill of Rights, being amendments to the Constituion, are part of the Constitution, necesitating no seperate mention.

So...
Cite the text of the US Constitution that grants the people of the United States their rights.
 
Interesting how you mention only the Constitution and not, for instance, the Bill of Rights. That's like saying "show me in Harry Potter where the founding fathers granted rights". If you only allow documents where you know it wasn't done, you can't declare victory. :spin:

Not to take sides, but the Bill of Rights and other Amendments are amendments to the Constitution so I guess they would qualify as part of it? Since, for example I think it's the 12th Amendment effectively nullifies some text inside the original Constitution.

Living document, etc.

It's all in how you word stuff around here. lol.
 
Ikari said:
You have proven the laws of thermodynamics from first principle! Wow, since it's never been done before, color me impressed. Can I see these proofs?

We've shown you that the laws of thermodynamics have application and are testable, let's see you give that a try for your view of rights. What you're basically doing is saying "Aha! I think there are magical rights-giving pixies and if you can't solve Pi to the last digit, I must be right!" Like it or not, the laws of thermodynamics and rights have absolutely nothing to do with each other. You have the responsibility to back up your claims. Even if we could not in any way, shape or form defend the laws of thermodynamics, that doesn't alter your responsibility to support your claims on rights.

Get to work or admit failure.

You're defining "rights" through utility.

No, I'm using the only manner we can actually use to defend and give evidence for them. If you want to define them another way, demonstrate that your way has any actual realistic application. You don't get to just define things into existence on your say so. Put up or shut up.

Then, even if you still don't agree, you can maybe be less of an ass about it.

And when can we expect you to stop?
 
Not to take sides, but the Bill of Rights and other Amendments are amendments to the Constitution so I guess they would qualify as part of it? Since, for example I think it's the 12th Amendment effectively nullifies some text inside the original Constitution.

Living document, etc.

It's all in how you word stuff around here. lol.

Yes, I know, but I'm just pointing out that he's taking a particular document, which doesn't represent the whole of American law, and expecting everything to come from that one specific document. Perhaps using the Bill of Rights wasn't a good choice, but I've honestly had some people claim that the Bill of Rights and other founding documents are not sufficient because they fall outside of their particular narrow view of things.
 
Yes, I know, but I'm just pointing out that he's taking a particular document, which doesn't represent the whole of American law, and expecting everything to come from that one specific document.
Were you going to cite the text of the US Constitution that grants the people of the United States their rights, or not?

If you like, you can also cite from federal law, state constitutions, and state law as well.
 
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We've shown you that the laws of thermodynamics have application and are testable, let's see you give that a try for your view of rights. What you're basically doing is saying "Aha! I think there are magical rights-giving pixies and if you can't solve Pi to the last digit, I must be right!" Like it or not, the laws of thermodynamics and rights have absolutely nothing to do with each other. You have the responsibility to back up your claims. Even if we could not in any way, shape or form defend the laws of thermodynamics, that doesn't alter your responsibility to support your claims on rights.

Get to work or admit failure.

You either can't understand or refuse to understand the point. You want definite proof of the origin of rights. Well first off, you have never provided definitive proof of your position. You've merely stated I was wrong and used examples of functionality to try to advance your case. Secondly, thermodynamics cannot be proven from first principle, they are based on observation. Which if we take the laws of thermodynamics to be true that observation can lead to revelation and we can then phenomenologically model said observation. Which is the point here. Definitive proof, there's probably nothing you could offer me or I could offer you to satisfy that point. Thus we can make observation and model ideas and theories off of that observation. The absolute nature of rights is made in that light. We've observed humans for quite some time, and in doing so we can discover the base rights which are innate and inalienable to people at large. It's a large part of what is covered by the ideals of natural rights.

All you really did is say that I'm wrong, demand proof, but don't hold yourself to your own standards.

No, I'm using the only manner we can actually use to defend and give evidence for them. If you want to define them another way, demonstrate that your way has any actual realistic application. You don't get to just define things into existence on your say so. Put up or shut up.

You are doing the same god damned thing. Why do you get to do it, but I can't? The hypocrisy coming from you is getting annoying. You've defined "rights" in some way. You've defined privilege and social contract as rights. You've provided nothign to back up your claims. You don't get to just define things into existence on your say so. Put up or shut up.

And when can we expect you to stop?

You from the start have acted condescending and rude towards my ideals. Again, hold yourself to the standards you're tying to hold me to. I've explained my position of natural rights, even given you a direction to which you could learn more. You've provided nothing for your claims other than saying I'm wrong. Put up or shut up.
 
Ikari said:
You want definite proof of the origin of rights.

I want some kind of logical justification for your claims and evidence and well-reasoned arguments that demonstrate that they are at all likely to be true. That's not so much to ask for.

All you've been doing is running around waving your arms screaming "I'm right I'm right I'm right I'm right I'm right I'm right!" When people ask you to prove it, you keep running in circles screaming "I'm right I'm right I'm right I'm right!" That doesn't demonstrate your case, it just proves you don't have one.

You from the start have acted condescending and rude towards my ideals.

That's because you've never demonstrated one whit that your ideals are valid. Just because you make some crap up and spout it doesn't mean it deserves respect. You have not once justified your ideals and when people have directly asked you to defend them, you've ignored them. If anything, you've proven that your ideals are not worthy of respect.

You want to believe stupid, unsupported, nonsensical crap, go ahead. I'll just be sure to point it out as what it is: stupid, unsupported, nonsensical crap. You can change that by actually SUPPORTING YOUR CLAIMS!

That's what rational people do.
 
I want some kind of logical justification for your claims and evidence and well-reasoned arguments that demonstrate that they are at all likely to be true. That's not so much to ask for...That's what rational people do.
Speaking of which...

Were you going to cite the text of the US Constitution that grants the people of the United States their rights, or not?

If you like, you can also cite from federal law, state constitutions, and state law as well.
 
Speaking of which...

Were you going to cite the text of the US Constitution that grants the people of the United States their rights, or not?

If you like, you can also cite from federal law, state constitutions, and state law as well.

Surely you can use Google, I don't have to do your research for you. Look up cases like Roe v. Wade to see where rights are granted. :roll:
 
I want some kind of logical justification for your claims and evidence and well-reasoned arguments that demonstrate that they are at all likely to be true. That's not so much to ask for.

All you've been doing is running around waving your arms screaming "I'm right I'm right I'm right I'm right I'm right I'm right!" When people ask you to prove it, you keep running in circles screaming "I'm right I'm right I'm right I'm right!" That doesn't demonstrate your case, it just proves you don't have one.

The idea of natural rights is not new. I didn't make it up. It was subject of debate for some time, and codified in many political philosophies such as those proposed by Hobbes and Locke.

Some philosophers and political scientists make a distinction between natural and legal rights.

Legal rights (sometimes also called civil rights or statutory rights) are rights conveyed by a particular polity, codified into legal statutes by some form of legislature (or unenumerated but implied from enumerated rights), and as such are contingent upon local laws, customs, or beliefs. In contrast, natural rights (also called moral rights or unalienable rights) are rights which are not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of a particular society or polity. Natural rights are thus necessarily universal, whereas legal rights are culturally and politically relative.

Blurring the lines between natural and legal rights, U.S. statesman James Madison believed that some rights, such as trial by jury, are social rights, arising neither from natural law nor from positive law but from the social contract from which a government derives its authority.

The question of which (if any) rights are natural and which are merely legal is an important one in philosophy and politics. Critics of the concept of natural rights argue that the only rights that exist are legal rights, while proponents of the concept of natural rights say that documents such as the United States Declaration of Independence and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights demonstrate the usefulness of recognizing natural rights. The focus of natural rights in the United States Declaration of Independence is expressed in the legal philosophy known as Declarationism.

The theory of natural law is closely related to the theory of natural rights. During the Age of Enlightenment, natural law theory challenged the divine right of kings, and became an alternative justification for the establishment of a social contract, positive law, and government — and thus legal rights — in the form of classical republicanism. Conversely, the concept of natural rights is used by some anarchists to challenge the legitimacy of all such establishments.

The idea of human rights is also closely related to that of natural rights; some recognize no difference between the two and regard both as labels for the same thing, while others choose to keep the terms separate to eliminate association with some features traditionally associated with natural rights. Natural rights, in particular, are considered beyond the authority of any government or international body to dismiss. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is an important legal instrument enshrining one conception of natural rights into international soft law.

Thomas Hobbes (1588–1679) included a discussion of natural rights in his moral and political philosophy. Hobbes' conception of natural rights extended from his conception of man in a "state of nature". Thus he argued that the essential natural (human) right was "to use his own power, as he will himself, for the preservation of his own Nature; that is to say, of his own Life; and consequently, of doing any thing, which in his own judgement, and Reason, he shall conceive to be the aptest means thereunto." (Leviathan. 1,XIV)

According to Hobbes, to deny this right would be absurd, just as it would be absurd to expect that carnivores might reject meat or fish stop swimming. Hobbes sharply distinguished this natural "liberty", from natural "laws" (obligations), described generally as "a precept, or general rule, found out by reason, by which a man is forbidden to do, that, which is destructive of life, or taketh away the means of preserving life; and to omit, that, by which he thinketh it may best be preserved." (ibid.)

In his natural state, according to Hobbes, man's life consisted entirely of liberties and not at all of laws - "It followeth, that in such a condition, every man has the right to every thing; even to one another's body. And therefore, as long as this natural Right of every man to every thing endureth, there can be no security to any man... of living out the time, which Nature ordinarily allow men to live." (ibid.)

This would lead inevitably to a situation known as the "war of all against all", in which human beings kill, steal and enslave others in order to stay alive, and due to their natural lust for "Gain", "Safety" and "Reputation". Hobbes reasoned that this world of chaos created by unlimited rights was highly undesirable, since it would cause human life to be "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short". As such, if humans wish to live peacefully they must give up most of their natural rights and create moral obligations in order to establish political and civil society. This is one of the earliest formulations of the theory of government known as the social contract.

Hobbes objected to the attempt to derive rights from "natural law," arguing that law ("lex") and right ("jus") though often confused, signify opposites, with law referring to obligations, while rights refer to the absence of obligations. Since by our (human) nature, we seek to maximize our well being, rights are prior to law, natural or institutional, and people will not follow the laws of nature without first being subjected to a sovereign power, without which all ideas of right and wrong are rendered insignificant - "Therefore before the names of Just and Unjust can have place, there must be some coercive Power, to compel men equally to the performance of their Covenants..., to make good that Propriety, which by mutual contract men acquire, in recompense of the universal Right they abandon: and such power there is none before the erection of the Commonwealth." (Leviathan. 1, XV) This marked an important departure from medieval natural law theories which gave precedence to obligations over rights. However, some thinkers such as Leo Strauss, maintained that Hobbes kept the primacy of natural law or moral obligation over natural rights, and thus did not fully break with medieval thought.

John Locke (1632–1704), was another prominent Western philosopher who conceptualized rights as natural and inalienable. Like Hobbes, Locke was a major social contract thinker. He said that man's natural rights are life, liberty, and property. He greatly influenced the American Revolutionary War with his writings of natural rights.

According to Locke there are three natural rights:

* Life- everyone is entitled to live once they are created.
* Liberty- everyone is entitled to do anything they want to so long as it doesn't conflict with the first right.
* Estate- everyone is entitled to own all they create or gain through gift or trade so long as it doesn't conflict with the first two rights.

The social contract is a contract between a being or beings of power and their people or followers. The King makes the laws to protect the 3 natural rights. The people may not agree on the laws, but they have to follow them. The people can be prosecuted and/or killed if they break these laws. If the King does not follow these rules, he can be overthrown.

Thomas Paine (1731–1809) further elaborated on natural rights in his influential work Rights of Man (1791), emphasizing that rights cannot be granted by any charter because this would legally imply they can also be revoked and under such circumstances they would be reduced to privileges:

It is a perversion of terms to say that a charter gives rights. It operates by a contrary effect — that of taking rights away. Rights are inherently in all the inhabitants; but charters, by annulling those rights, in the majority, leave the right, by exclusion, in the hands of a few. ... They...consequently are instruments of injustice.

The fact therefore must be that the individuals themselves, each in his own personal and sovereign right, entered into a contract with each other to produce a government: and this is the only mode in which governments have a right to arise, and the only principle on which they have a right to exist.

Your arguments base themselves on the non-existence of natural rights. Rather only legal rights exist. But the ideal of natural rights is not new. And the observations which can lead people to the discovery of natural rights has been around for quite some time. It is a philosophy I personally agree with. Since humans are humans no matter what, there is a base of rights inherent to all people. Life, liberty, and property are these rights. Can there be other "rights", I would call the government granted privilege, though some refer to it as legal rights. Some times legal "rights" comes through the use of government force to suppress natural rights. But the existence of natural rights is an important context for it always places power then in the hands of the People, not through some majority or government assembly.
 
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Surely you can use Google, I don't have to do your research for you. Look up cases like Roe v. Wade to see where rights are granted. :roll:
Aha. So much for "Get to work or admit failure".

I ask you to put up or shut up, like YOU have been doing for tke last couple days, and you run away from the challenge.

'Nuff said. Thanks.
 
The idea of natural rights is not new. I didn't make it up. It was subject of debate for some time, and codified in many political philosophies such as those proposed by Hobbes and Locke.

I never said you made it up, I said you can't justify it. Neither could Hobbes or Locke. Just because someone says something, even if it's a philosopher, that still doesn't make it so.

Now I'm still waiting for your EVIDENCE that rights exist outside of human society.
 
Aha. So much for "Get to work or admit failure".

I ask you to put up or shut up, like YOU have been doing for tke last couple days, and you run away from the challenge.

'Nuff said. Thanks.

I did point you to one such case, you just don't want to pay attention. If you want to go look at the text of the case, Google is your friend. I provided one source, there are many, many, many more.
 
You have proven the laws of thermodynamics from first principle! Wow, since it's never been done before, color me impressed. Can I see these proofs?

The Laws of Thermodynamics are taken as Law because they've never been observed to have been broken.

Your assertion that rights are innate has been shown false by the existence of mutually exclusive rights, thereby creating paradox. Paradox does not exist in nature, and hence your claim that rights are innate has been proven false.

Your choices now are to provide an argument that invalidates the proof, you concede defeat, or you pretend the proof was wrong and none of us evil people are LISTENING, DAMMIT!


No, I've pointed out everything already. You're defining "rights" through utility. But those aren't "rights". Rights are innate and inalienable to humans.

Merely restating your hypothesis is not proof of the hypothesis.

Circular reasoning is failed reasoning.
 
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