View Poll Results: Do you have the right to NOT exercise a right?

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  • Yes

    40 88.89%
  • No

    2 4.44%
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    3 6.67%
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Thread: The right to -not- exercise a right?

  1. #21
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    f you drive a car, you have a responsibility to carry car insurance, not a right to it.
    Isn't Car Insurance required more to protect other people's property from you? (and yes I know it's for unlikely events happening solely to you, like a tree falling on your car)

  2. #22
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    If healthcare were recognized as a right, then single payer would be the only reasonable solution.
    How so? Rights are not dependent upon your ability to exercise them, nor can they be exercised at the expense of your neighbor. Rights are there, they are not to be infringed, yet you are responsible for them, thus, single payer is the opposite of a singular reasonable solution. Let's be honest, it's taxpayer subsidized, and government enforced, there is no "single payer" in this, only a single financing method
    Of course it's not practical to say we can guarantee absolutely everything in healthcare. Technology will outpace our ability to pay for healthcare more and more over time. So if one recognized BASIC healthcare as a right, the government would provide that to everybody and then things beyond basic could be covered by supplemental, as they have in France.
    In other words, everyone will have to live down and accept less, even though it is a right, someone would be able to deny it due to cost, but single payer "is the only reasonable solution" right?
    The idea of individual mandates is not based upon healthcare being a right, but rather being a responsibility, much like carrying car insurance. If you drive a car, you have a responsibility to carry car insurance, not a right to it.
    As created by law, but you don't HAVE, to own a car.
    Seeing healthcare as an individual responsibility is based largely upon the fact that people are not allowed to collapse and die in the emergency room due to EMTALA. In fact, the ER can't deny care at all.
    As created by a Federal Government mandate, so the the federal government can "protect" people from their own bad decisions, like a good big brother.
    So people who go without insurance can and often do end up costing the rest of us a lot of money.
    This is true, but you want the culprit to get the loot in this case.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  3. #23
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Oooh! Nice try!!!

    Here's where you fail:
    Selective Service, created under the power to raise armies, has nothing to do with the militia.

    Now, tell me how you agree that you cannot force anyone to exercise thir rights, but support mandating that people exercise their right to health care.

    Calling Out the Militia

    The States as well as Congress may prescribe penalties for failure to obey the President’s call of the militia. They also have a concurrent power to aid the National Government by calls under their own authority, and in emergencies may use the militia to put down armed insurrection.1581 The Federal Government may call out the militia in case of civil war; its authority to suppress rebellion is found in the power to suppress insurrection and to carry on war.1582 The act of February 28, 1795,1583 which delegated to the President the power to call out the militia, was held constitutional.1584 A militiaman who refused to obey such a call was not “employed in the service of the United States so as to be subject[p.332]to the article of war,” but was liable to be tried for disobedience of the act of 1795.1585

    CRS/LII Annotated Constitution Article I

    Not every right is absolute; some rights may be constrained, some rights are both a right and a responsibility. Not every right is a responsibility.


    There is a question about whether a mandate for health insurance is constitutional; the argument you're trying to make isn't an argument that will prevail.


    For the record, I believe a mandate is probably constitutional.

  4. #24
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    The idea of individual mandates is not based upon healthcare being a right, but rather being a responsibility, much like carrying car insurance. If you drive a car, you have a responsibility to carry car insurance, not a right to it.
    For liability to others, not to yourself. You don't have to insure your car (or yourself) at all unless you're required to by your loan agreement.

    You're not even required to carry liability insurance if you can self-insure.


    So people who go without insurance can and often do end up costing the rest of us a lot of money.
    Uncompensated care makes up a tiny fraction of health care spending, hardly a blip.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  5. #25
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    The idea of individual mandates is not based upon healthcare being a right, but rather being a responsibility, much like carrying car insurance. If you drive a car, you have a responsibility to carry car insurance, not a right to it.
    Non-sequitur.
    Car insurance is a responsibilty you must accept in order to exercise a privilege granted to you by the state, to ensure that others are protected from your actions.

  6. #26
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    Calling Out the Militia
    None of this changes anything -- the Selective Service act has nothing to do with the militia. You argument still fails.

    Now, tell me how you agree that you cannot force anyone to exercise thir rights, but support mandating that people exercise their right to health care.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 11-04-09 at 01:56 PM.

  7. #27
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    Not every right is absolute; some rights may be constrained, some rights are both a right and a responsibility. Not every right is a responsibility.
    Almost. Every right IS absolute, but with limits, if your rights harm innocents they are still rights, however, the actions have consequences, legal consequences for the aggressor, and practical for the victim, thus the protections of those rights dissappear because of those abuses of the rights, rights do carry responsibilities......however these responsibilities aren't mandates, they are simply consequences due to misuse.


    There is a question about whether a mandate for health insurance is constitutional
    It isn't.

    For the record, I believe a mandate is probably constitutional.
    No, first, healthcare is a service, as is healthcare coverage. There is no right to healthcare because of this fact, it would take a very large logical leap to suggest otherwise, however, even IF healthcare could be proven a right, the extension of said right ends at ability to provide on the individual, which is the responsibility of the individual. Finally, if one cannot be forced to assemble, own a gun, join a religion, own a house, etc., then they cannot be forced to participate in healthcare policy if it is a right, only if it is a government mandated(which would be unconstitutional on the federal level as it is beyond it's scope of power) program could the argument be made for a healthcare requirement.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  8. #28
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Oh, I thought this was about mandatory health insurance.
    I'm sure it was intended for that.

    I took it to a more basic level.

    After all, people choosing to not carry insurance are excercising a facet of their right to die.

  9. #29
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    In fact, the ER can't deny care at all. So people who go without insurance can and often do end up costing the rest of us a lot of money.
    The cure for that problem is to chain the patient to the bed until the bill is paid.

    Theft of services is a crime.

  10. #30
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    [quote=LaMidRighter;1058344686]
    if your rights harm innocents they are still rights
    I don't even...what?

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