View Poll Results: Do you have the right to NOT exercise a right?

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  • Yes

    40 88.89%
  • No

    2 4.44%
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    3 6.67%
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Thread: The right to -not- exercise a right?

  1. #141
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Just as rights are inherent to my being, so is mass.
    So your rights are natural then?

  2. #142
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari
    In that the arbitrariness of rights means that they can be redefined, and defining rights on possible outcome means those with the guns makes the rights.
    And if you look at history, this has been exactly the case. Rights have been defined almost entirely by the rich and powerful. Whether you like that or not doesn't change the facts. You seem to want to take your personal wishes and translate them into claims about reality and it doesn't work that way.

    As government holds monopoly of force these days, that makes them decider of rights.
    The government, as an extension of the people, yes.

    And thus if they declare a right non-existent, the right no longer exists.
    So long as the people allow that to happen, yes. However, we do have founding documents that do grant certain rights to the citizenry that the government cannot simply eliminate by fiat. Those rights were established by the founding fathers and were validated by the citizens at the time when they voted to accept the Constitution. The idea that they were just writing down rights that already existed, no matter what they might have thought, is absurd.

    The People absolutely have these certain rights, the government is made in part to protect and proliferate the exercise of these rights.
    There you go again, you're just asserting that these rights exist without actually demonstrating it. I keep asking you to demonstrate how you've come to these conclusions and you have entirely failed to do so. First, you'd need to produce an objective reason to think that these ethereal "rights" exist at all in any form, then you'd need to demonstrate why this particular set of rights, presumably "American rights" are the one and only set of rights that are actually real. To date, you've done neither, you've just repeated that it's the case. Stop claiming, start proving.

    But they are an absolute, they cannot be broken.
    Whether or not they are absolute remains to be seen. At best, we can say we haven't found a situation so far where the thermodynamic laws aren't true, but we once thought the same thing about Newtonian physics and that didn't last forever. Science is provisional, it reflects only what we know today. As we learn more tomorrow, our current ideas are open for revision.

    But there is plenty of qualitative evidence to suggest the existence and absolute nature or rights.
    And when will you get around to presenting any of it?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #143
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Like accepting the premise that rights are granted by society?
    I agree.
    What is true is only what you can demonstrate. So far, you've just taken a position without a shred of objective evidence or logical argument and demanded it's true.

    I, on the other hand, can back up everything I've said with history, sociology, cultural anthropology, etc.

    Let me know when you find any objective support for your claim.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  4. #144
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    There you go again, you're just asserting that these rights exist without actually demonstrating it.
    And I keep asking you to prove the laws of thermodynamics from first principle.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #145
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You can't test the laws of thermodynamics either. You can see if they've been violated in some way, but they cannot be proven from first principle.
    Sure we can, and we do. While this is completely off-topic, we can easily test the ideas of entropy in a closed system and energy loss.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  6. #146
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I, on the other hand, can back up everything I've said with history, sociology, cultural anthropology, etc.
    I'll give you something very simple to do then:
    Cite the text of the US Constitution that grants the people of the United States their rights.

  7. #147
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    And I keep asking you to prove the laws of thermodynamics from first principle.
    And I keep asking you to prove that "rights" exist in *ANY* fashion. When can I expect you to do that?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  8. #148
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    And I keep asking you to prove that "rights" exist in *ANY* fashion. When can I expect you to do that?
    When you do the former. Otherwise, we'll have to accept that qualitative measurement can yield just as fine observation and result as quantitative.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #149
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    That doesn't stop free speech from being controlled.
    If it's controlled, it's not free.

    Ergo, you should have used the word speech nakedly, without the adjective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    You can't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater,
    Improper freedom of expression that leads to panic, confusion, and possible injury and death to others violates the freedom others to live uninjured by the yeller's irresponsible action. This is a case where the freedoms of people come into conflict, which, of course, is where the limits of freedom are defined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    you cannot slander people,
    Slander and libel have the potential to damage reputation and therefore the standing of the victim in his community and thus his financial opportunities. Therefore this infringement on the victim's freedom is a justifiable restriction on otherwise "free" speech.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    you cannot lie in court
    Yes, because perjury threatens the freedom of the accused.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    you cannot give state secrets to foreign governments,
    Losing wars threatens the freedom of everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    there are all kinds of limitations to what you can and cannot say. Free speech is an ideal, it's not something that exists in practice.
    One has to understand that freedom is not an absolute in populations greater than one.

  10. #150
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Gravity is a law of attraction between massive objects. It's not the same as rights.
    Gravity is a specific attractive force existing between bodies that can be mathematically approximated.

    Gravity exists and is immutable, and exists completely independently of any human being, to state three conditions distinguishing gravity from "rights".

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