View Poll Results: Do you have the right to NOT exercise a right?

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  • Yes

    40 88.89%
  • No

    2 4.44%
  • Other

    3 6.67%
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Thread: The right to -not- exercise a right?

  1. #131
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Only insofar as the people are the source of the government's power and ultimately are responsible for determining via group consensus what rights people will have and under which conditions they will have them. If the government denies certain rights that the people have asserted, then the government is no longer operating under public mandate. and thus, the people have every right, for lack of a better term, to topple that government and set up another which operates as a representative of the people.
    Ok, this is reasonable.

    My insistence for rights being innate comes in a very similar form. In that the arbitrariness of rights means that they can be redefined, and defining rights on possible outcome means those with the guns makes the rights. As government holds monopoly of force these days, that makes them decider of rights. And thus if they declare a right non-existent, the right no longer exists. The absolute nature of rights puts all power and sovereignty in the hands of the People. The People absolutely have these certain rights, the government is made in part to protect and proliferate the exercise of these rights. Any act against the rights on part of the government is unjust. If the government trends to grievously against our rights for too long, it is the right and duty of the People to install a new government. All power is vested in the People, the People give some of their power and sovereignty to the State to allow it to operate in the manner mandated by the People. The rhetoric in these cases I believe to be very powerful as you are asserting what is the base of all power and authority. IMO, arbitrary "rights" (which are then technically only privilege) allows the government to usurp the base of power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Where the laws are derived from? Certainly. They are derived from human observation and testing. All physical laws are simply statements that we have made based upon observation of the world around us. Outside of our own heads, the "laws of thermodynamics" have no meaning. Thermodynamics does, the laws that we created to explain thermodynamics do not.
    But the base laws of thermodynamics are amongst the few which do not come from first principle. They are in fact purely phenomenological. But they are an absolute, they cannot be broken. It's demonstration that qualitative evidence can be just as good as quantitative and that absolute law can be discovered through qualitative means. Just like rights. We may not have a "rights meter" which directly measures rights. But there is plenty of qualitative evidence to suggest the existence and absolute nature or rights.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #132
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    That's about as ridiculous as saying "I have a right to fly, it's just being infringed upon by gravity".
    Gravity is a law of attraction between massive objects. It's not the same as rights.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #133
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    So you're using circular reasoning, that accepting a premise supports the end-result of said premise. That's a logical fallacy.
    Um.... no.
    If you accept the premise, then the statement follows.
    If you do not accept the premise, then it may or may not follow.
    I was responding to someone that accepts the premise.

  4. #134
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Gravity is a law of attraction between massive objects. It's not the same as rights.
    Apparently you are one of this body of mass' rights otherwise it'd let you go.

  5. #135
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicDude86 View Post
    Apparently you are one of this body of mass' rights otherwise it'd let you go.
    Just as rights are inherent to my being, so is mass.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  6. #136
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Um.... no.
    If you accept the premise, then the statement follows.
    If you do not accept the premise, then it may or may not follow.
    I was responding to someone that accepts the premise.
    You can accept anything you want, it doesn't necessarily make it so. Racists think that white people are inherently better than black people. They can believe it until the cows come home, they're still wrong.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  7. #137
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Gravity is a law of attraction between massive objects. It's not the same as rights.
    No, rights as you've defined them are a complete fantasy. At least gravity is testable.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  8. #138
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    You can accept anything you want, it doesn't necessarily make it so. Racists think that white people are inherently better than black people. They can believe it until the cows come home, they're still wrong.
    They are wrong, as humans are in general the same on the whole; including the same set of base rights.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #139
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    You can accept anything you want, it doesn't necessarily make it so.
    Like accepting the premise that rights are granted by society?
    I agree.

  10. #140
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    Re: The right to -not- exercise a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    No, rights as you've defined them are a complete fantasy. At least gravity is testable.
    You can't test the laws of thermodynamics either. You can see if they've been violated in some way, but they cannot be proven from first principle.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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