View Poll Results: Does understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

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Thread: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

  1. #61
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    Re: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

    http://www.usgcoin.org/library/doctrine/COIN-FM3-24.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by Counterinsurgency Field Manual
    1-14. Before most COIN operations begin, insurgents have seized and exploited the initiative, to some
    degree at the least. Therefore, counterinsurgents undertake offensive and defensive operations to regain
    the initiative and create a secure environment. However, killing insurgents—while necessary, especially
    with respect to extremists—by itself cannot defeat an insurgency.
    Gaining and retaining the initiative requires
    counterinsurgents to address the insurgency’s causes through stability operations as well. This initially
    involves securing and controlling the local populace and providing for essential services. As security
    improves, military resources contribute to supporting government reforms and reconstruction
    projects. As counterinsurgents gain the initiative, offensive operations focus on eliminating the insurgent
    cadre, while defensive operations focus on protecting the populace and infrastructure from direct attacks.
    As counterinsurgents establish military ascendancy, stability operations expand across the area of operations
    (AO) and eventually predominate. Victory is achieved when the populace consents to the government’s
    legitimacy and stops actively and passively supporting the insurgency.
    I read this and other statements in the Counterinsurgency Field Manual as stating that killing insurgencts, especially the extremists, is an important part of COIN. But it is not the main thrust of COIN - protecting the populace and rebuilding institutions is.

  2. #62
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    Re: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    http://www.usgcoin.org/library/doctrine/COIN-FM3-24.pdf



    I read this and other statements in the Counterinsurgency Field Manual as stating that killing insurgencts, especially the extremists, is an important part of COIN. But it is not the main thrust of COIN - protecting the populace and rebuilding institutions is.
    Purdy much what I've been saying all along, but reality doesn't mean much to some folks.

    There are some folks in this world that read a couple of Libbo articles, then they are suddenly Liddell Hart, or something. Yet, they have zero comprehension of the principles of warfare, nor the elements of combat power.
    Last edited by apdst; 11-04-09 at 11:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  3. #63
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    Re: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

    Quote Originally Posted by kansaswhig View Post
    OK, buddy; whatever you say.

    It's ok to just say that you are to proud to admit that you made a poor argument and was summarily destroyed in front of everyone.

    We all know anyway.
    Oh look everyone! An I WIN! post!

    Seriously dude? Despite you saying this...

    Quote Originally Posted by kansaswhig View Post
    Yes, that does happen. From my experience it was rare.

    So do you concede your original point?

    You said that when U.S. forces cause collateral damage they are terrorists, which, of course, is insane.
    You're saying that I was "destroyed"? Instead of trying to say "I WIN!" try and actually look at it from their point of view. You know the ones that go to the terrorists side to get revenge for a fallen loved one?

    The only thing that you destroyed was your credibility by trying to say "I WIN!"
    Last edited by Kal'Stang; 11-05-09 at 12:33 AM.
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    Re: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Oh look everyone! An I WIN! post!

    Seriously dude? Despite you saying this...



    You're saying that I was "destroyed"? Instead of trying to say "I WIN!" try and actually look at it from their point of view. You know the ones that go to the terrorists side to get revenge for a fallen loved one?

    The only thing that you destroyed was your credibility by trying to say "I WIN!"
    You called American Soldiers terrorists. I said they weren't.

    I think I win. You lose.

  5. #65
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    Re: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

    Quote Originally Posted by kansaswhig View Post
    You called American Soldiers terrorists. I said they weren't.

    I think I win. You lose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    A case could be made for any country or group of people to be considered a terrorist. As far as I'm concerned the term "terrorist" is purely subjective.
    Do you know what the term "subjective" means? Please re-read my posts and put 2 and 2 together.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Purdy much what I've been saying all along, but reality doesn't mean much to some folks.
    Except that wasn't what you were saying.

    Do we need to add this to the documented list of your failures to understand the written English language?

    No one argued that killing insurgents isn't a part of COIN. Why you can't figure that out is beyond reason. What we disagree with is your position that it is the primary goal and how a COIN operation is judged.

    There are some folks in this world that read a couple of Libbo articles, then they are suddenly Liddell Hart, or something.
    By your own criteria, the British documentation from Malaya makes them "Libbos." Furthermore, you just called everyone in General Petraeus's brain trust, including retired Lt. Col Nagl who helped write the Army's COIN manual which you claimed you were supporting to be "Libbos."

    Good job on epic fail there. By your reasoning, you support "Libbos."

    Yet, they have zero comprehension of the principles of warfare, nor the elements of combat power.
    The irony is beyond measurement here. You insult those who have read and follow the doctrine that you allegedly claim to have been saying all along.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I read this and other statements in the Counterinsurgency Field Manual as stating that killing insurgencts, especially the extremists, is an important part of COIN. But it is not the main thrust of COIN - protecting the populace and rebuilding institutions is.
    Which serves to eliminate the insurgency via eliminating its support. As I have stated before (and as Apdst crudely insulted me on without understanding) that by removing the water from the fish, an insurgency dies. Economic development and security removes reasons to support an insurgency and as the FARC have known for years, without support of the locals, there can be no insurgency.

    The notion that killing is key is pretty asinine.

    Here's Afghanistan Math:
    If there are 10 terrorists and you kill 2, how many do you have left?

    A) 8
    B) 0, as none want to fight anymore
    C) 50 as you pissed off all of their friends and family who now want to kill you

    Ignoring the basis for COIN, as Apdst has done repeatability here in favor of killing rather then development is why we'll be in Afghanistan forever. Unless you want to kill everyone, which I don't put past some people here, the focus really should be on security and development. Not seek and destroy.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  8. #68
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    Re: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Which serves to eliminate the insurgency via eliminating its support. As I have stated before (and as Apdst crudely insulted me on without understanding) that by removing the water from the fish, an insurgency dies. Economic development and security removes reasons to support an insurgency and as the FARC have known for years, without support of the locals, there can be no insurgency.

    The notion that killing is key is pretty asinine.
    Besides the Counterinsurgency Field Manual, another good text is [ame=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0275993035/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lp o-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0275989410&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX 0DER&pf_rd_r=0ND9G33DA72Z01WSCCS2]Counterinsurgency Warfare: Theory and Practice[/ame] by David Galula. It is about the French experience in Algeria in the 50s. Which they ultimately got their butts kicked and lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Here's Afghanistan Math:
    If there are 10 terrorists and you kill 2, how many do you have left?

    A) 8
    B) 0, as none want to fight anymore
    C) 50 as you pissed off all of their friends and family who now want to kill you

    Ignoring the basis for COIN, as Apdst has done repeatability here in favor of killing rather then development is why we'll be in Afghanistan forever. Unless you want to kill everyone, which I don't put past some people here, the focus really should be on security and development. Not seek and destroy.
    I do think that we (US soldiers) are being conservative with our fire and getting mainly insurgents, not civilians. But the insurgents do have a very effective recruiting/training pipeline, whether that is recruiting Afghans or Pakistani Taliban, I don't know.

    The problems in Afghanistan as I see it, are two-fold...

    First is the sanctuaries: they are running training and reconstitution in Pakistan and we really can't get at them.

    Second is the cultural divide: Coalition Afghanis are Tajik, urban, secular (more so than religious), educated, not typically the rules of Afghanistan. The Taliban insurgent forces are Pashtun, rural, religious, illiterate, usually the rules of Afghanistan. How do we get the Pashtun population to turn against their brothers, the Taliban? How do get the Pashtun to enter a consensual government?

  9. #69
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    Re: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

    This, knowing the enemy is common sense.. What takes intelligence is seeing him as a man, not an enemy..
    A man with problems - yes, but a man..

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    Re: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Besides the Counterinsurgency Field Manual, another good text is Counterinsurgency Warfare: Theory and Practice by David Galula. It is about the French experience in Algeria in the 50s. Which they ultimately got their butts kicked and lost.



    I do think that we (US soldiers) are being conservative with our fire and getting mainly insurgents, not civilians. But the insurgents do have a very effective recruiting/training pipeline, whether that is recruiting Afghans or Pakistani Taliban, I don't know.

    The problems in Afghanistan as I see it, are two-fold...

    First is the sanctuaries: they are running training and reconstitution in Pakistan and we really can't get at them.

    Second is the cultural divide: Coalition Afghanis are Tajik, urban, secular (more so than religious), educated, not typically the rules of Afghanistan. The Taliban insurgent forces are Pashtun, rural, religious, illiterate, usually the rules of Afghanistan. How do we get the Pashtun population to turn against their brothers, the Taliban? How do get the Pashtun to enter a consensual government?
    You don't.
    The approach has to be changed..
    And there are similarities with Vietnam - where evidently nothing has been learned..

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