View Poll Results: Does understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

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    1 5.88%
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Thread: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

  1. #11
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    Re: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

    Quote Originally Posted by kansaswhig View Post
    There are those of us who are well nuanced in COIN Ops both in practice and theory.

    There are those who don't have this life experience....that's OK.

    Smugly insulting the entire forum b/c they allegedly don't know as much as you about a particular topic is in bad taste.

    Had he presented this information in response to a thread that had faulty premises on COIN Ops, then I would understand.

    If what you say is true, this is all the more reason he should have begun the thread with a series of easy-to-understand bullets educating those that aren't informed.

    I think the poll question isn't necessarily germane to the topic he discusses.

    Any time you are ready Whug, come on down to Middle East forum. Then, when you tell them that you worked with and talked with the Sons of Iraq and what that achieved in Iraq you can be denounced as a terrorists as well.

    There are many posters who are interested in the subject of counter-terrorism and COIN, and there are a few who think that any talk about extremist groups equates to supporting that extremist group.

    THis thread was a direct rebuttal to that small group of posters, and, upon deliberation, was moved out of the forum to give it wider view and discussion.

    The context is not clear upon moving the thread, but it is a direct rebuttal to small number of posters in the ME forum who view accurately describing Hamas's intentions as directly supporting terrorism. That is the context. This is a rebuttal to a small group of posters who think there are 'real' terrorists stalking the halls of debatepolitics.com.

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    Re: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

    Quote Originally Posted by gree0232 View Post
    A:
    Interestingly enough, YOU are one of the reasons this was started, and it was not started as a poll. This was in a direct rebuttal to your, and a few other posters, who continually respond to any discussion of terrorists groups by claiming that those who seek to understand them, even with the intent of taking them apart, are really terrorists.
    I have no idea what you are talking about. You must have me confused with someone else. I have never said that. If you find proof that I did, I would be happy to admit it. I would advocate understanding terrorist groups and the cultures in which insurgencies are fought.

    Hamas's actions are listed in some detail in the original post, and you and others, routinely call those making the posts Hamas supporters, terrorist sympathizers, and out right terrorists.
    I have never mentioned one thing about Hamas in any post I have ever had on DP. Ever. I stick to what I know, which is Iraq (primarily) and AFG.

    So man up, make your case, and demonstrate how that post equates to supporting terrorists. You have made that claim for months on the forum, now prove it.
    Again, I'm sorry, I have never made this argument. I honestly have no idea what you are talking about and frankly, I'm confused at exactly what point you are trying to make?

    You really must have me confused with someone else.

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    Re: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

    Historically, the most ruthless CI campaigns were generally the most successful. Just sayin'...

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    Re: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

    Quote Originally Posted by gree0232 View Post
    Any time you are ready Whug, come on down to Middle East forum. Then, when you tell them that you worked with and talked with the Sons of Iraq and what that achieved in Iraq you can be denounced as a terrorists as well.
    In fact I have, in Salah din Province and Kirkuk Province. And been an advisor to an IA battalion, and did company-level COIN and stability ops in Mosul for a year. To call someone who worked with SOI a terrorist would be to call myself one...would that make sense?

    There are many posters who are interested in the subject of counter-terrorism and COIN, and there are a few who think that any talk about extremist groups equates to supporting that extremist group.
    I really think you are way off base here...who has done that? Not me.

    THis thread was a direct rebuttal to that small group of posters, and, upon deliberation, was moved out of the forum to give it wider view and discussion.
    OK, I'm certainly not one of them; why did you accuse me of that?

    The context is not clear upon moving the thread, but it is a direct rebuttal to small number of posters in the ME forum who view accurately describing Hamas's intentions as directly supporting terrorism. That is the context. This is a rebuttal to a small group of posters who think there are 'real' terrorists stalking the halls of debatepolitics.com.
    Well that sounds pretty dumb. But I imagine if you were a Hamas supporter on DP, then someone would call you a terrorist. Just like if you said you were pro-choice, someone would call you a baby killer (which of course isn't true).

    Sounds like you are a little thin skinned.

    Oh, and P.S., quit accusing me of posting things that I absolutely did not.

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    Re: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

    I think it is vitally important to know one's enemy. In the case of Hamas, this would entail a complete understanding of their propaganda techniques, especially in regards to the way they use the internet.

    As far as supporting or not supporting terrorism, it is not the understanding of , say, Hamas that indicates one is a supporter, but the advocacy of their points of view, and manipulative attempts to justify their techniques.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

    Quote Originally Posted by kansaswhig View Post
    I have no idea what you are talking about. You must have me confused with someone else. I have never said that. If you find proof that I did, I would be happy to admit it. I would advocate understanding terrorist groups and the cultures in which insurgencies are fought.



    I have never mentioned one thing about Hamas in any post I have ever had on DP. Ever. I stick to what I know, which is Iraq (primarily) and AFG.



    Again, I'm sorry, I have never made this argument. I honestly have no idea what you are talking about and frankly, I'm confused at exactly what point you are trying to make?

    You really must have me confused with someone else.
    Kansas:
    It was not meant for you.

    The explanantion you got was why this thread appeared and why it seems angry. It was to establish the context of the original post.

    This is not a direct rebuttal to you, but to a small group of posters who continually jump in and call those who are trying to explain why extremist groups are doing what they are doing, what they hope to achieve, and effective ways to stop it with, "You are a terrorist."

    If my explanation implied that I thought you were one of those posters, I apologize.

    Again, the number of posters doing this is small, but I, and a few other posters who have repeatedly endured this behavior simply want the comments to either be proven or to stop. The intent of this thread is to offer a fuller explanation of why studying these groups in important, particularly if we want to prevent them from suceeding. Previous, less direct, attempts at explanation were ignored.

    This is a gauntlet. This is the demand that this small number of posters publically explain themselves.

  7. #17
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    Re: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    I think it is vitally important to know one's enemy. In the case of Hamas, this would entail a complete understanding of their propaganda techniques, especially in regards to the way they use the internet.

    As far as supporting or not supporting terrorism, it is not the understanding of , say, Hamas that indicates one is a supporter, but the advocacy of their points of view, and manipulative attempts to justify their techniques.
    Well, then explain how you exgage in a discussion about Hamas and their attentions without having it appear that someone is advocating their points of view. Explain how someone points to what they are doing and the reason why without appearing to advocate for the group using the tactic in your view?

    Finally, when the vast mojority end with, "If this is what group X is doing, and our policy is not addressing it, then perhaps maybe we should shift our policy to better confront it," how exactly does that equate to being a terrorist?

    How exactly do you have a discussion about Hamas, what its intention are, what it is doing and why it is doing it (Understanding your enemy) without being called a terrorist by YOU.

    We never actually get the the solution set, because you are busy denouncing the study of the goup as material support to the group. Do you seriously think that there are terrorists members stalking the halls of the forum? Or might it be more appropriate to extend a degree of courtesy and try asking for clarification from time to time?

    So, there is the challenge. Show how the original message in this thread provides support to Hamas, advocates their position, or is an attempt to manipulatively justify what they are doing.

    Pony up. Make your case.
    Last edited by gree0232; 11-03-09 at 11:24 PM.

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    Re: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Historically, the most ruthless CI campaigns were generally the most successful. Just sayin'...
    Not true, at least not if we buy into the continium of conflict found in Clausewitz (I happen to). Very brutal COIN efforts may appear to eliminate an insurgency, but the effect is only temporary. A generation or so later, the insurgency re-appears and is ever more brutal and violent.

    Saddam's attacks on the Southern Shia did restor order for a time, but, as US forces enetering in Najaf and Karbala discovered, there were certainly Shia resistance forces in the area.

    How mant times did Britain try and solve its Irish problem through brutality? And in the end the Isle was divided and the last counter-insurgency seems to have effectively put the issue to rest on a large scale (still some minor criminal groups hiding behind the IRA mantel).

    we can also look at German actions during WWII in the Balkans and other areas, and these areas were hardly pacified even in the face of near total German brutality.

    The Balkans themselves are a case study in how brutality can tear an area assunder. the tangled hostory of one groups hero being every other groups villian points to the problems of brutality as policy.

    Brutality, particularly in the modern world, can have dramatic effects. The Kosovo ethnic cleansing provoked a massive NATO military intervention.

    Brutality in Burma may have capped the immediate problem, but would you be willing to bet that it is the last unrest generated by the inequalities and injstices in that system?

    In the end, brutality rarely works as a comprehensive solution.

  9. #19
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    Re: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

    Quote Originally Posted by gree0232 View Post
    A:
    Interestingly enough, YOU are one of the reasons this was started, and it was not started as a poll. This was in a direct rebuttal to your, and a few other posters, who continually respond to any discussion of terrorists groups by claiming that those who seek to understand them, even with the intent of taking them apart, are really terrorists.

    Hamas's actions are listed in some detail in the original post, and you and others, routinely call those making the posts Hamas supporters, terrorist sympathizers, and out right terrorists.

    So man up, make your case, and demonstrate how that post equates to supporting terrorists. You have made that claim for months on the forum, now prove it.
    1) You were never in your entire time here was called a terrorist.
    That is, unless you see terrorist supporter and outright terrorist at the same light.

    2) You were called a terrorist supporter for a whole different wording, and "understanding your enemy" is not even one of the reasons for this label, so your post here is pretty much irrelevant to the reason of your labeling.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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    Re: Deos understanding your enemy make you a terrorist?

    Quote Originally Posted by gree0232 View Post
    Well, then explain how you exgage in a discussion about Hamas and their attentions without having it appear that someone is advocating their points of view. Explain how someone points to what they are doing and the reason why without appearing to advocate for the group using the tactic in your view?
    Easy -- by not actually advocating them, by not promoting them, and especially, by not mocking those who oppose them.


    Quote Originally Posted by gree0232 View Post
    Finally, when the vast mojority end with, "If this is what group X is doing, and our policy is not addressing it, then perhaps maybe we should shift our policy to better confront it," how exactly does that equate to being a terrorist?
    It doesn't, and nobody has ever said it was


    Quote Originally Posted by gree0232 View Post
    How exactly do you have a discussion about Hamas, what its intention are, what it is doing and why it is doing it (Understanding your enemy) without being called a terrorist by YOU.
    A good start might be to stop referring to their intentional murder of Jews as "doing what needs to be done" , while mocking those who oppose such barbarity. Perhaps this has never been explained to you, but most people do not like murder. Your mocking them for not supporting murder most certainy does give every indication of your supporting such action, since otherwise you would be joining them in denunciation. Reacting against intentional murder is a normal, human reaction, and so your saying that Murder is "doing what needs to be done" while acting as if the normal, human reaction were something to be mocked is hardly the stuff of "understanding" terrorism -- it is the stuff of promoting, supporting, and justifying it.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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