View Poll Results: Are you a jingoist?

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  • Yes - I have excessive bias in judging my country as superior to others.

    3 11.11%
  • No

    24 88.89%
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Thread: Are you a jingoist?

  1. #21
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    Re: Are you a jingoist?

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    really? i have never understood why people believe it's acceptable to invade a country because they have the capacity for democracy.
    Those thing should be taken together. They all must be met to invade a country and change it's government. It would be pretty pointless to invade a country to spread democracy that did NOT have the capacity for democracy. It is actually the weakest part of applying that justification to Iraq, IMHO.

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    Re: Are you a jingoist?

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    really? i have never understood why people believe it's acceptable to invade a country because they have the capacity for democracy.
    To me its about resources or wiping out a potential threat or maybe defending an ally. I do not really care about instilling democracy in countries that really have nothing to do with us or have no interest to us. Its one thing to try to make a country democratic if we invaded it, destroyed its military and removed its leaders like in Iraq and Afghanistan's case. Destroying and running is not really a good tactic.If we decided to do something about Sudan, do you think we should just wipe its leaders and military out and leave hoping that the next people in charge do not do the same thing or would it be better if we tried to rebuild and install a democracy?
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Are you a jingoist?

    I am not a jingoist, no, but I might point out that neither am I a self-loathing reactionary.

    If the forums I have visited are any indication, the "America, love it or leave it crowd", is matched pretty closely by the "America is the source of all the world's ills" set.

    Neither get my respect.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  4. #24
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    Re: Are you a jingoist?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Those thing should be taken together. They all must be met to invade a country and change it's government. It would be pretty pointless to invade a country to spread democracy that did NOT have the capacity for democracy. It is actually the weakest part of applying that justification to Iraq, IMHO.
    there is no justification for iraq, imo. and afghanistan is looking worse and worse.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Are you a jingoist?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    To me its about resources or wiping out a potential threat or maybe defending an ally. I do not really care about instilling democracy in countries that really have nothing to do with us or have no interest to us. Its one thing to try to make a country democratic if we invaded it, destroyed its military and removed its leaders like in Iraq and Afghanistan's case. Destroying and running is not really a good tactic.If we decided to do something about Sudan, do you think we should just wipe its leaders and military out and leave hoping that the next people in charge do not do the same thing or would it be better if we tried to rebuild and install a democracy?
    if we decided to do something about sudan, we should do it all the way. i don't know enough about their culture to advocate that, however.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Are you a jingoist?

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    there is no justification for iraq, imo. and afghanistan is looking worse and worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    if we decided to do something about sudan, we should do it all the way. i don't know enough about their culture to advocate that, however.
    I agree with you on Afghanistan.

    Please explain how you state that there was no justification for Iraq, yet there is for Sudan?

  7. #27
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    Re: Are you a jingoist?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I agree with you on Afghanistan.

    Please explain how you state that there was no justification for Iraq, yet there is for Sudan?
    i didn't say there was justification. i said i didn't know enough about the situation to advocate any action.

    we had no justification for iraq. none. bush made a terrible mistake with that invasion.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Are you a jingoist?

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    i didn't say there was justification. i said i didn't know enough about the situation to advocate any action.
    Ah, I see. Sorry I misread what you wrote.

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    we had no justification for iraq. none. bush made a terrible mistake with that invasion.
    Well I have debated this a few times in the past couple of weeks. I do think it was justified, at this time, but this could change. I have just started "Just and Unjust Wars" by Michael Walzer.

    My most compact reasoning for the justification of Iraq is in post #17: http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1058341854. Note that according to my reasoning, Iraq was a candidate while Sudan is not. Which part(s) of that reasoning do you object to?

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    Re: Are you a jingoist?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Ah, I see. Sorry I misread what you wrote.



    Well I have debated this a few times in the past couple of weeks. I do think it was justified, at this time, but this could change. I have just started "Just and Unjust Wars" by Michael Walzer.

    My most compact reasoning for the justification of Iraq is in post #17: http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1058341854. Note that according to my reasoning, Iraq was a candidate while Sudan is not. Which part(s) of that reasoning do you object to?
    a history of wmd is not enough.
    spreading democracy is not a sufficient reason.

    it's my belief that iraq posed no threat to us.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Are you a jingoist?

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    a history of wmd is not enough.
    spreading democracy is not a sufficient reason.

    it's my belief that iraq posed no threat to us.
    Ok, so it has to be in the National Defense? I believe this is what this book will say as well. Like I said, I think "in the National interest" is sufficient, but I am prepared to change my mind. It looks like a great book.

    Let me add that there is a history of intervention by the US "in the national interest", without a threat, or the threat was a threat to economic interests abroad and not a security threat. Some of them are:
    - Mexico
    - Phillipines
    - Korea
    - Vietnam
    - Many countries in Latin America
    - Long War in the west

    Collectively known as the Small Wars.
    Last edited by reefedjib; 11-03-09 at 11:55 AM.

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