View Poll Results: Did you vote in Nov 2009 US elections?

Voters
30. You may not vote on this poll
  • Voted absentee ballot

    4 13.33%
  • Voted early voting

    1 3.33%
  • Voted on election day at the polls

    8 26.67%
  • Skipped b/c lack of knowledge of candidates/issues

    4 13.33%
  • Skipped b/c I didn't care

    6 20.00%
  • Meant to vote and missed it

    1 3.33%
  • I'm not eligible to vote in US elections

    6 20.00%
Page 7 of 9 FirstFirst ... 56789 LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 85

Thread: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

  1. #61
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    I'm about as emotional about this as a corpse and felt the same way last night. You lost the argument and my attention the second you tried to play the foolish ad hom card. Better luck next time, and yes I did not even bother to read anything you just posted aside from the last sentence, so emotionally wrapped up in this thread am I.
    When you care to address the mathematical facts instead of just making incoherent attacks on anyone who disagrees with you, be sure to let me know.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  2. #62
    Banned

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Last Seen
    07-11-11 @ 02:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    3,249

    Re: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    When you care to address the mathematical facts instead of just making incoherent attacks on anyone who disagrees with you, be sure to let me know.
    Maybe next time you want to discuss mathematics you will present such a case, rather than going for the lazy and foolish approach. Meaning crying I am being "emotional" and attacking people "ad hom" and making "incoherent attacks" does not address the topic much less have anything to do with my stances in this thread. And we both know you know this and that you know better. Physician heal thyself.

    Good bye Kandahar, I wish you better luck and better FORM next time. Save the "you are emotional and ad hom incoherently attacking those who disagree with you" tripe for those with an IQ below room temp.
    Last edited by Sir Loin; 11-03-09 at 01:17 PM.

  3. #63
    Dispenser of Negativity
    Cold Highway's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Newburgh, New York and World 8: Dark Land
    Last Seen
    12-24-12 @ 11:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    9,596
    Blog Entries
    7

    Re: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

    Just came back from the polls, there was measure to allow non-profits to hire low level prisoners for their organizations which I voted for.
    Jackboots always come in matched pairs, a left boot and a right boot.

  4. #64
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    You know what? If you are going to sit around with baited breath, counting the clock and jumping to conclusions when I don't post quickly enough for you, this can only end BADLY for you. Trust me here champ.
    We're on an internet debate forum. Unless my computer detonates, I don't think anything can really end badly for anyone.

    Now I will be back to "tackle" your latest rationalization, but as important as this argument is, I have to admit that I am going to go ahead and go to bed. After all, tomorrow is another day. Feel free to mock me in absentia.
    Where exactly have I mocked you? Since the first post, I've said that it sounds like voting is rational for you. I've been nothing but polite in pointing out that your experience may be different from everyone else's, but you keep on taking offense and getting outraged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    As I have already stated, I think those who subscribe to the idea that they have no substantive voice and who choose not to vote have no right to complain. Likewise they are a part of the problem, not any solution.
    And this is demonstrably false. Of the four following people, which one has the smallest impact on policy:

    Person A: Does not vote, but works on campaigns.
    Person B: Does not vote, but is a journalist who writes about politics for a paper
    Person C: Does not vote, but is a donor to candidates and issues that he cares about
    Person D: Votes every year, but doesn't get involved in other ways.

    Persons A, B, and C can each have a significant impact on the way things turn out. Person D will not. Every one of them will have their voice heard to a much greater degree than Person D.

    The fact of the matter is that if the majority of citizens took their right to vote as duty and did so, we would solve a great many problems that beset this nation.
    Now this is just completely false.

    First off, the majority of citizens do vote. I don't know what elections you've been watching, but 57% of eligible voters voted in 2008. We also had majorities in 2004, 2000, 1992, 1988, 1984, 1980.... Did that "solve a great many problems that beset this nation?"

    It goes without saying that politicians count on the kind of apathy on display here to keep the system as dysfunctional as it is now. Feel free to explain how this is not the case.
    See above - you're completely wrong about voter turnout, which sort of invalidates the rest of your claims.

    As I said before, those who throw away for whatever reason their voice, have none. Sure you can show up in internet forums and try to make your case, but internet forums are just that and any attempt to compare the "power" a voter has to that of a poster at an internet forum is patently absurd.
    No matter how infinitesimal the influence of discussing politics on a website is, it is still larger than the influence of your vote on an election's outcome. For the last time, this is not an opinion, this is mathematical fact. Why do you refuse to acknowledge that fact? If you think the math is wrong, explain why. Whatever you do, stop pretending like we're not pointing it out to you over and over and over.

    Pointing me to articles and opinion pieces about not voting is not proving a mathematical argument and can only lead to pointing to similar articles and opinion pieces which dispel that mind set.
    No, I'm pretty ****ing sure that that's a goddamn mathematical fact. I can't believe you're actually arguing this.

    I've spent most of my adult life trying to get people to stop buying into the indulgent mindset that voting does not count or matter, so important an aspect of our fundamental rights as it is.
    And apparently you've based most of your adult life on a faulty premise. Sorry to be the one to break it to you.

    It is a shame that in 2009 one still has to deal with people who try to act as if this is not the case.
    It's a shame that in 2009 we have people who still refuse to look at facts in front of their face and admit their truth.

    Regardless how brilliantly impressed with their own rationalization that voting does not matter, count or give the people a voice. One thing is for certain though, hewing to the stated arguments put forth against voting in this thread will very clearly not lead anywhere productive or help this nation or guide it in any meaningful direction whatsoever.
    And again, this is ridiculous. Do you actually think everyone who influences politics must vote to do so? If George Soros or Roger Murdoch forget to vote in an election, does their influence disappear for that cycle?
    Last edited by RightinNYC; 11-03-09 at 01:33 PM.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  5. #65
    Banned

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Last Seen
    07-11-11 @ 02:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    3,249

    Re: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    We're on an internet debate forum. Unless my computer detonates, I don't think anything can really end badly for anyone.
    True that, I actually meant that comment as related to holding my attention span. Not in any *real sense* of the word and I admit I was literally falling asleep at the keyboard at that point.
    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Where exactly have I mocked you? Since the first post, I've said that it sounds like voting is rational for you. I've been nothing but polite in pointing out that your experience may be different from everyone else's, but you keep on taking offense and getting outraged.
    I did not say you had mocked me. As you are aware, when one signs off on an argument at debate boards, with the promise to return and talk further at some future point, they are frequently mocked for that exit. Thus in absentia. It was a joke, one I am glad to see did not pertain to you.

    Now you will please understand that I have to go and attend to matters in the real world. But I will return ASAP and kick this can around with you, precisely because you have not tried to play the silly "emotional ad hom attack" cards that Kandahar has. I will pick this up right here when I do get back, but it might be as much as a couple of days before I can do so as I will be traveling on business. I suspect I don't need to explain to you why posting at DP is not a priority at such times.
    Last edited by Sir Loin; 11-03-09 at 01:48 PM.

  6. #66
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    But I will return ASAP and kick this can around with you, precisely because you have not tried to play the silly "emotional ad hom attack" cards that Kandahar has.
    Silly? You want me to point out the silly emotional arguments and/or ad hominem attacks you've made on this thread? 10/4. Coming right up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    I think you speak only for yourself when you state that you have no substantive voice. By your own admission you don't vote and so you have eliminated your only means of being one of those who is "counted" or "counts" in a democratic sense. Rationalize it however you wish, you are by choice only white noise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    I disagree and frankly find your position to be irrational. But then I am never truly shocked at the length and contortions those who oppose "voting" go to about "voice" and counting. Also, actual living human beings (some of my family) have died to protect and make possible my (and your) right to vote. You throw yours away if you wish, I won't. Nor will I embrace your lithe dismissal of the same or the shortsightedness inherent in it.


    So why bother with democracy then, or what exactly is the Jedi wisdom you seek to impart here?

    So the lesson is relegate your political voice to internet forums? Do tell, do elaborate either of you. I'm game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    Most people in a democracy place a "high value" on voting. Big gold star to you on deducing that sir. Now if you can explain how your position is rational and mine irrational, minus the cerebral hookus pokus, I'm game. Seriously speaking, your attempt to state that voting is a waste of time is not persuading me that such is the case and that I have no point. Here on the internet or in the real world.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    Let us just cut to brass tacks eh? I have a vote, it is counted. Regardless the argument given it is counted, those who do not are not counted. Insert rationalized statements about rationalized statements ad ifinitum and those who don't vote are still not counted. Congrats all the way around for the reasons you are not counted and to those of you who are counted who think being counted ain't all that. Who cares if you did not vote? You count even less than those you mock for counting do. At least *ONE* who mocks the value of the count still participates in it! His voice actaully counts, whereas YOURS does not, in any tangible way, except of course.....the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    Saying my vote is meaningless is just plain dumb and owing to dogma IMO. I voted in the 2009 election and on many issues both local and national. You do know there was more on the docket in 2009 issue wise and chronologically than the POTUS race? You will of course demonstrate for my admittedly ignorant self, all that you claim won't you? As I have said, I am game.


    I was not speaking to you there and thought the forum norms would have made this obvious.


    Never said any of the above, just responding to your arguments with my comments.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    Utterly irrelevant, unless you care to perform an ad hoc soliloquy?

    So yet, somehow and despite your best intentions, somehow above nothing? Well then I certainly see the pay off in the passionate arguments put forth so far. Chuckle.


    Of course you would. Down is up and up is down. I know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    My what a silly and pointless quip. I suspect that or the two of us, you will be paying far more attention to the election return tomorrow night. I'm not much invested in them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    You know what? If you are going to sit around with baited breath, counting the clock and jumping to conclusions when I don't post quickly enough for you, this can only end BADLY for you. Trust me here champ.

    Now I will be back to "tackle" your latest rationalization, but as important as this argument is, I have to admit that I am going to go ahead and go to bed. After all, tomorrow is another day. Feel free to mock me in absentia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    Good God, as tired as I am that post is pretty sad. Tell you what, while I sleep and before I come back to post on topic, as I have already stated I shall, why don't we see if YOU can guess why that post is just silly? And I'm being NICE calling it that.
    I see plenty of ad hominem attacks peppered throughout your posts, and as of yet, nothing disproving the mathematical fact that your vote is meaningless. My favorite was when you referred to statistics as "cerebral hokus pokus."
    Last edited by Kandahar; 11-03-09 at 01:59 PM.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  7. #67
    Banned

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Last Seen
    07-11-11 @ 02:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    3,249

    Re: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Silly? You want me to point out the silly emotional arguments and/or ad hominem attacks you've made on this thread? 10/4. Coming right up.

    I see plenty of ad hominem attacks peppered throughout your posts, and as of yet, nothing disproving the mathematical fact that your vote is meaningless. My favorite was when you referred to statistics as "cerebral hokus pokus."
    Sorry to break this to you and you should know better, stating that I think something is a rationalization is not an ad hom attack nor are jokes or sharp comments. Likewise stating that IMO saying my vote is meaningless, is dumb or owing to dogma, is also not an ad hom attack. Making a comment about statistics where none are in evidence is not ad ad hom attack. You would do well to not become so emotional, you would not have to go such lengths and contortions.

    Now that last post of yours was pretty frakin stupid, and if you want to be offended and call that an emotional ad hom attack, fine by me. Oh yeah and remember Kandy, I'm the one who is supposed to be all worked up and frothy here. Chuckle. Good day.
    Last edited by Sir Loin; 11-03-09 at 02:35 PM.

  8. #68
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    Making a comment about statistics where none are in evidence
    You are wrong. RightinNYC linked an article that shows that the probability of your vote determining the outcome of the election is nil.
    Have you ever, in your entire life, cast the deciding vote in an election? If not, how did your vote influence public policy?
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  9. #69
    Banned

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Last Seen
    07-11-11 @ 02:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    3,249

    Re: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

    Well thanks to Continental Airlines I have time to respond to you and then some.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And this is demonstrably false. Of the four following people, which one has the smallest impact on policy:

    Person A: Does not vote, but works on campaigns.
    Person B: Does not vote, but is a journalist who writes about politics for a paper
    Person C: Does not vote, but is a donor to candidates and issues that he cares about
    Person D: Votes every year, but doesn't get involved in other ways.

    Persons A, B, and C can each have a significant impact on the way things turn out. Person D will not. Every one of them will have their voice heard to a much greater degree than Person D.
    This argument does not address the fundamental fact that politicians pay attention to who votes. Particularity to groups of voters and that politicians by nature ignore those who don't vote as they have no power or voice with a politician. Surely it is not your intention to suggest that this is not the case? There are myriad ways that the outcome of votes matter on both the local and national level. From local bond elections to the POTUS race, the stance that one has no power or voice as a voter, or that a voters voice is valued on the level that a non voters is, is absurd. There are many real life examples where one vote has made the difference between winning and losing, between enacting a law or bond measure and rejecting it. Especially at the local level. We repeatedly see instances where a city council member, school board trustee, member of the board of supervisors, or a special district member — such as water board or fire district — is elected by one vote. In 1948, President Truman carried Ohio and California by less than one vote per precinct, thereby winning enough electoral votes to give him the presidency. And in 1960, one vote change in each precinct would have defeated John F. Kennedy.


    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Now this is just completely false.

    First off, the majority of citizens do vote. I don't know what elections you've been watching, but 57% of eligible voters voted in 2008. We also had majorities in 2004, 2000, 1992, 1988, 1984, 1980.... Did that "solve a great many problems that beset this nation?"
    When I stated that if the majority of citizens voted a great many problems or issues that beset this nation would be solved, I did not speak strongly enough. I do not speak solely of the POTUS election but rather *all* elections. I have no idea what the turnout for local elections and state elections is where you live. Here and in a great many places the electorate is not galvanized into voting in the same numbers as is the case in the POTUS elections. Simply put if everyone, or at least the vast majority of Americans voted the vast majority of the time, politicians would be forced to address more issues of concern to more voters. As an example a very high percentage of senior citizens vote in each election, so elected officials pay greater attention to issues such as modifications in social security legislation. Because people with disabilities don't usually vote in high numbers, politicians are not as interested in their viewpoints. There are more than 35 million voting age persons with disabilities. If people with disabilities voted in the same ratios as other groups did, their influence could change and influence the results of elections. This is what I am talking about with regard to "voice" and voting mattering in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    No matter how infinitesimal the influence of discussing politics on a website is, it is still larger than the influence of your vote on an election's outcome. For the last time, this is not an opinion, this is mathematical fact. Why do you refuse to acknowledge that fact? If you think the math is wrong, explain why. Whatever you do, stop pretending like we're not pointing it out to you over and over and over.
    You have not presented any math, you presented two opinion articles which don't even address the examples I gave above in reference to Truman and Kennedy in a POTUS race. And neither of them even attempts to delve into or addressing anything more than POTUS elections and let me restate that I am talking about *all* elections, not just the POTUS race.


    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    No, I'm pretty ****ing sure that that's a goddamn mathematical fact. I can't believe you're actually arguing this.
    So now an op/ed piece is a mathematical fact and the two you have submitted prove that voting is pointless and does not matter? My what a broad net your articles attempt to cast. In fact that Slate article starts out with the blanket statement that no vote by anyone ever mattered before 2000. Kinda flies in the face of history and common sense so yeah, I can't believe you're actually arguing this myself. And again you are predicating your argument upon the fallacious argument that the only way your vote matters is in the outcome of an election, which is patently absurd as there are many ancillary outcomes and results based upon your vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And apparently you've based most of your adult life on a faulty premise. Sorry to be the one to break it to you.
    And how you read into my comment that I have "based my adult life" on this premise you say is faulty should be a fanciful exploration. Chuckle.


    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    It's a shame that in 2009 we have people who still refuse to look at facts in front of their face and admit their truth.
    Well let's see how you do with the facts or thoughts I have expressed in this post before we bemoan the death or truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And again, this is ridiculous. Do you actually think everyone who influences politics must vote to do so? If George Soros or Roger Murdoch forget to vote in an election, does their influence disappear for that cycle?
    No I don't and I never said such. The person stating that there is no value whatsoever in voting and that any value attached to it is irrational and solely related to civic pride, is you.
    Last edited by Sir Loin; 11-03-09 at 04:53 PM.

  10. #70
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    This argument does not address the fundamental fact that politicians pay attention to who votes.


    And they pay more attention to journalists, donors, and campaign workers. Period.

    Surely it is not your intention to suggest that this is not the case? There are myriad ways that the outcome of votes matter on both the local and national level. From local bond elections to the POTUS race, the stance that one has no power or voice as a voter, or that a voters voice is valued on the level that a non voters is, is absurd.
    No, it's math and logic.

    There are many real life examples where one vote has made the difference between winning and losing, between enacting a law or bond measure and rejecting it. Especially at the local level. We repeatedly see instances where a city council member, school board trustee, member of the board of supervisors, or a special district member — such as water board or fire district — is elected by one vote.


    I very much doubt it happens with the regularity you're suggesting, but I don't know why you think that bears on my point. The odds of your individual vote mattering are infinitesimal.


    In 1948, President Truman carried Ohio and California by less than one vote per precinct, thereby winning enough electoral votes to give him the presidency. And in 1960, one vote change in each precinct would have defeated John F. Kennedy.
    And one vote per precinct is not the same as one vote. Not even close.

    When I stated that if the majority of citizens voted a great many problems or issues that beset this nation would be solved, I did not speak strongly enough. I do not speak solely of the POTUS election but rather *all* elections. I have no idea what the turnout for local elections and state elections is where you live. Here and in a great many places the electorate is not galvanized into voting in the same numbers as is the case in the POTUS elections. Simply put if everyone, or at least the vast majority of Americans voted the vast majority of the time, politicians would be forced to address more issues of concern to more voters.
    And I think you're making this up without anything to support it. We already see high turnout in presidential year elections, and that doesn't improve our lot any.

    As an example a very high percentage of senior citizens vote in each election, so elected officials pay greater attention to issues such as modifications in social security legislation. Because people with disabilities don't usually vote in high numbers, politicians are not as interested in their viewpoints. There are more than 35 million voting age persons with disabilities. If people with disabilities voted in the same ratios as other groups did, their influence could change and influence the results of elections. This is what I am talking about with regard to "voice" and voting mattering in our society.
    Which has what to do with individual people voting? You keep on missing my point - yes, if 35 million people got together and voted, it would make a difference. The exact same difference as it would if 35,000,001 people got together and voted.

    You have not presented any math, you presented two opinion articles which don't even address the examples I gave above in reference to Truman and Kennedy in a POTUS race.
    You don't understand why those aren't the same thing. That's not my fault.

    And neither of them even attempts to delve into or addressing anything more than POTUS elections and let me restate that I am talking about *all* elections, not just the POTUS race.
    Which is why I pointed out that "[a]lthough your odds increase as the electorate gets smaller and more evenly split, it's still all but a mathematical certainty that you will never sway any election that has more than a few hundred people voting."

    So now an op/ed piece is a mathematical fact and the two you have submitted prove that voting is pointless and does not matter?
    No, math is a mathematical fact.

    My what a broad net your articles attempt to cast. In fact that Slate article starts out with the blanket statement that no vote by anyone ever mattered before 2000. Kinda flies in the face of history and common sense so yeah, I can't believe you're actually arguing this myself.
    Provide me with a link to a significant election that was decided by one vote (Note: this is different from your "one vote per precinct" example, for obvious reasons).


    No I don't and I never said such. The person stating that there is no value whatsoever in voting and that any value attached to it is irrational and solely related to civic pride, is you.
    Holy ****, stop misstating my arguments.

    -There is value in voting.
    -That value is entirely dependent on the value you place on voting.
    -That value is not irrational
    -There is effectively zero chance that your vote will every change the outcome of any noteworthy vote.
    -The belief that your vote will change the outcome of any noteworthy vote is irrational.

    Seriously, if you take a 101 level political theory class, this will be explained to you in full detail.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Page 7 of 9 FirstFirst ... 56789 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •