View Poll Results: Did you vote in Nov 2009 US elections?

Voters
30. You may not vote on this poll
  • Voted absentee ballot

    4 13.33%
  • Voted early voting

    1 3.33%
  • Voted on election day at the polls

    8 26.67%
  • Skipped b/c lack of knowledge of candidates/issues

    4 13.33%
  • Skipped b/c I didn't care

    6 20.00%
  • Meant to vote and missed it

    1 3.33%
  • I'm not eligible to vote in US elections

    6 20.00%
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Thread: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

  1. #51
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    Re: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    Saying my vote is meaningless is just plain dumb and owing to dogma IMO.
    Again, this is not my opinion, this is a mathematical fact. You can call it whatever you want, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

    I voted in the 2009 election and on many issues both local and national. You do know there was more on the docket in 2009 issue wise and chronologically than the POTUS race?
    And depending on how small your local elections are and how your district leans, the odds that your vote would make the difference on any of those issues ranges from somewhere between zero and some other vanishingly small number.

    You will of course demonstrate for my admittedly ignorant self, all that you claim won't you? As I have said, I am game.
    I already provided you with a link to an article explaining this, but I'll copy-paste the relevant portion for you:

    Your individual vote will never matter unless the election in your state is within one vote of a dead-even tie. (And even then, it will matter only if your state tips the balance in the electoral college.) What are the odds of that? Well, let's suppose you live in Florida and that Florida's 6 million voters are statistically evenly divided—meaning that each of them has (as far as you know) exactly a 50/50 chance of voting for either Bush or Kerry—the statistical equivalent of a coin toss. Then the probability you'll break a tie is equal to the probability that exactly 3 million out of 6 million tosses will turn up heads. That's about 1 in 3,100—roughly the same as the probability you'll be murdered by your mother.

    And that's surely a gross overestimate of your influence, because it assumes there's no bias at all in your neighbors' preferences. Even a slight change in that assumption leads to a dramatic change in the conclusion. If Kerry (or Bush) has just a slight edge, so that each of your fellow voters has a 51 percent likelihood of voting for him, then your chance of casting the tiebreaker is about one in 10 to the 1,046th power—approximately the same chance you have of winning the Powerball jackpot 128 times in a row.

    For those of us who live in New York State, the situation is far worse. Last time around, about 6.5 million votes were cast for major party candidates in New York state and 63 percent of them went to Al Gore. Assuming an electorate of similar size with a similar bias, my chance of casting the deciding vote in New York is about one in 10 to the 200,708th power. I have a better chance of winning the Powerball jackpot 7,400 times in a row than of affecting the election's outcome.
    Although your odds increase as the electorate gets smaller and more evenly split, it's still all but a mathematical certainty that you will never sway any election that has more than a few hundred people voting.

    Never said any of the above, just responding to your arguments with my comments.
    You implied that for people who don't vote, the only place their opinion matters is on the internet. Again, this is demonstrably false.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  2. #52
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    Re: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    When the results come in tomorrow night, be sure to keep track of how many of those elections were decided by your vote.
    My what a silly and pointless quip. I suspect that or the two of us, you will be paying far more attention to the election return tomorrow night. I'm not much invested in them.

  3. #53
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    Re: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    My what a silly and pointless quip. I suspect that or the two of us, you will be paying far more attention to the election return tomorrow night. I'm not much invested in them.
    So you vote for the sake of voting, not really caring about the outcome?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  4. #54
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    Re: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    Utterly irrelevant, unless you care to perform an ad hoc soliloquy?
    How is it irrelevant? If your sole goal is to influence the election, and your vote doesn't change the outcome of the election, then you might as well not have voted at all. If the same candidate would have won if you hadn't voted, what was the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin
    So yet, somehow and despite your best intentions, somehow above nothing? Well then I certainly see the pay off in the passionate arguments put forth so far. Chuckle.
    You're the one arguing with such passion (i.e. anger). RightinNYC's argument is completely rational from an economic standpoint: Your vote is utterly irrelevant because it almost never accomplishes the goal of influencing the outcome of an election. Your argument, on the other hand, is mostly just an emotional rambling with ad hominem attacks sprinkled in generously.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 11-03-09 at 04:58 AM.
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  5. #55
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    Re: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    So you vote for the sake of voting, not really caring about the outcome?
    You know what? If you are going to sit around with baited breath, counting the clock and jumping to conclusions when I don't post quickly enough for you, this can only end BADLY for you. Trust me here champ.

    Now I will be back to "tackle" your latest rationalization, but as important as this argument is, I have to admit that I am going to go ahead and go to bed. After all, tomorrow is another day. Feel free to mock me in absentia.

  6. #56
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    Re: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    You're the one arguing with such passion (read: anger). RightinNYC's argument is completely rational from an economic standpoint: Your vote is utterly irrelevant. Your argument, on the other hand, is mostly just an emotional rambling with ad hominem attacks sprinkled in generously.
    Good God, as tired as I am that post is pretty sad. Tell you what, while I sleep and before I come back to post on topic, as I have already stated I shall, why don't we see if YOU can guess why that post is just silly? And I'm being NICE calling it that.

  7. #57
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    Re: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    Who's voting, who's skipping, who meant to vote but missed it ?
    I am going to vote. Local and mid-term elections are just as important as the ones where we vote for president. Local levels are where bad things can most likely happen first.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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  8. #58
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    Re: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

    As I have already stated, I think those who subscribe to the idea that they have no substantive voice and who choose not to vote have no right to complain. Likewise they are a part of the problem, not any solution. The fact of the matter is that if the majority of citizens took their right to vote as duty and did so, we would solve a great many problems that beset this nation. It goes without saying that politicians count on the kind of apathy on display here to keep the system as dysfunctional as it is now. Feel free to explain how this is not the case. As I said before, those who throw away for whatever reason their voice, have none. Sure you can show up in internet forums and try to make your case, but internet forums are just that and any attempt to compare the "power" a voter has to that of a poster at an internet forum is patently absurd.

    Pointing me to articles and opinion pieces about not voting is not proving a mathematical argument and can only lead to pointing to similar articles and opinion pieces which dispel that mind set. I've spent most of my adult life trying to get people to stop buying into the indulgent mindset that voting does not count or matter, so important an aspect of our fundamental rights as it is. It is a shame that in 2009 one still has to deal with people who try to act as if this is not the case. Regardless how brilliantly impressed with their own rationalization that voting does not matter, count or give the people a voice. One thing is for certain though, hewing to the stated arguments put forth against voting in this thread will very clearly not lead anywhere productive or help this nation or guide it in any meaningful direction whatsoever.

    If you choose to cleave to the argument that you have no voice, good for you. I don't subscribe to such a self defeating and shortsighted philosophy and no amount of rationalization, attempts to paint me as an ad hom "attacker" or other sophistry is going to change that.

  9. #59
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    Re: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    As I have already stated, I think those who subscribe to the idea that they have no substantive voice and who choose not to vote have no right to complain. Likewise they are a part of the problem, not any solution.
    Wrong. In your entire life, how many elections have been changed due to your vote? I'm guessing zero, unless maybe if you live in a very small town. And even then I doubt it's a very large number.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin
    The fact of the matter is that if the majority of citizens took their right to vote as duty and did so, we would solve a great many problems that beset this nation.
    How would more votes being cast solve our nation's problems? And even if that were true, it would only reduce the marginal impact of any individual's vote even more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin
    It goes without saying that politicians count on the kind of apathy on display here to keep the system as dysfunctional as it is now. Feel free to explain how this is not the case.
    Completely irrelevant to the mathematical fact that the impact of your vote on the outcome of the election is virtually nil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin
    As I said before, those who throw away for whatever reason their voice, have none. Sure you can show up in internet forums and try to make your case, but internet forums are just that and any attempt to compare the "power" a voter has to that of a poster at an internet forum is patently absurd.
    A few good arguments on this forum are a much better way to influence public policy than an equal amount of time spent voting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin
    Pointing me to articles and opinion pieces about not voting is not proving a mathematical argument and can only lead to pointing to similar articles and opinion pieces which dispel that mind set.
    Actually it DOES prove the mathematical argument. If you have some articles that can dispel this mindset, let's see them. And they need to be something better than "But...but...voting is good!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin
    I've spent most of my adult life trying to get people to stop buying into the indulgent mindset that voting does not count or matter,
    I really hope you were trying to get people to vote for a specific candidate, rather than just trying to get them to vote in general. Otherwise, you've wasted your time and the time of anyone you managed to convince.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin
    so important an aspect of our fundamental rights as it is. It is a shame that in 2009 one still has to deal with people who try to act as if this is not the case. Regardless how brilliantly impressed with their own rationalization that voting does not matter, count or give the people a voice.
    You still haven't put forth anything resembling a rational argument. Do you believe that the mathematical odds of you casting the deciding vote are in error? If so, let's see your statistics and we can compare them to see which are correct. If not, then on what are you basing your opposition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin
    One thing is for certain though, hewing to the stated arguments put forth against voting in this thread will very clearly not lead anywhere productive or help this nation or guide it in any meaningful direction whatsoever.
    It will give people more time for leisure (which increases happiness) or more time for work (which increases productivity). That helps the nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin
    If you choose to cleave to the argument that you have no voice, good for you. I don't subscribe to such a self defeating and shortsighted philosophy
    You have a voice in public policy. But voting is a very inefficient way at influencing public policy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin
    and no amount of rationalization, attempts to paint me as an ad hom "attacker" or other sophistry is going to change that.
    No one painted you as anything. You did that to yourself when you responded to a completely logical economic argument with an incoherent, emotional rant and started calling people names.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 11-03-09 at 01:04 PM.
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  10. #60
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    Re: Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Wrong. In your entire life, how many elections have been changed due to your vote? I'm guessing zero, unless maybe if you live in a very small town. And even then I doubt it's a very large number.



    How would more votes being cast solve our nation's problems? And even if that were true, it would only reduce the marginal impact of any individual's vote even more.



    Completely irrelevant to the mathematical fact that the impact of your vote on the outcome of the election is virtually nil.



    A few good arguments on this forum are a much better way to influence public policy than an equal amount of time spent voting.



    Actually it DOES prove the mathematical argument. If you have some articles that can dispel this mindset, let's see them. And they need to be something better than "But...but...voting is good!"



    I really hope you were trying to get people to vote for a specific candidate, rather than just trying to get them to vote in general. Otherwise, you've wasted your time and the time of anyone you managed to convince.



    You still haven't put forth anything resembling a rational argument. Do you believe that the mathematical odds of you casting the deciding vote are in error? If so, let's see your statistics and we can compare them to see which are correct. If not, then on what are you basing your opposition?



    It will give people more time for leisure (which increases happiness) or more time for work (which increases productivity). That helps the nation.



    You have a voice in public policy. But voting is a very inefficient way at influencing public policy.



    No one painted you as anything. You did that to yourself when you responded to a completely logical economic argument with an incoherent, emotional rant and started calling people names.
    I'm about as emotional about this as a corpse and felt the same way last night. You lost the argument and my attention the second you tried to play the foolish ad hom card. Better luck next time, and yes I did not even bother to read anything you just posted aside from the last sentence, so emotionally wrapped up in this thread am I.

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