View Poll Results: Is "Islamic Terrorism" Dependent on or Independent of U.S. Foreign Policy?

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  • Dependent. Such terrorism would likely not exist if U.S. foreign policy were different.

    25 49.02%
  • Independent. Islamic terrorism would exist at current levels regardless.

    26 50.98%
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Thread: "Islamic Terrorism" - Dependent or Independent?

  1. #61
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    Re: "Islamic Terrorism" - Dependent or Independent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Are you saying that the goal of some ragtag pirates on the Barbary Coast - which stole cargo from ships - was "expansionism through offensive jihad"?
    They certainly justified their raids through religious context namely the example of Mohammad. And they weren't rag tag, it was state sponsored terrorism supported by their local governments.

    [i]t was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave, -- Ambassador John Adams reporting on the response of Ambassador from Tripoli Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja over the question of why these unprovoked attacks were being perpetrated on U.S. shipping

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    Re: "Islamic Terrorism" - Dependent or Independent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    That would be incorrect, as the Irgun's activities predated the creation of Israel.
    Correct, and Palestinian-Arab terrorism has predated Irgun by over a decade. (1921)
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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    Re: "Islamic Terrorism" - Dependent or Independent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    What do common criminals have to do with Islamic terrorism? Is Jeffrey Dahmer an example of Christian terrorism?
    The Barbary Pirates cited divine right for their unprovoked attacks against U.S. shipping just as modern terrorists do today. They attack us because we are infidels it's as simple as that.

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    Re: "Islamic Terrorism" - Dependent or Independent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    They certainly justified their raids through religious context namely the example of Mohammad. And they weren't rag tag, it was state sponsored terrorism supported by their local governments.

    [i]t was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave, -- Ambassador John Adams reporting on the response of Ambassador from Tripoli Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja over the question of why these unprovoked attacks were being perpetrated on U.S. shipping
    And the Bible was used to justify slavery. So what? There is a difference between using religion to justify one's actions, and being motivated by one's religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    The Barbary Pirates cited divine right for their unprovoked attacks against U.S. shipping just as modern terrorists do today. They attack us because we are infidels it's as simple as that.
    No, they attacked American ships because they wanted the cargo.
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    Re: "Islamic Terrorism" - Dependent or Independent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    They attack us because we are infidels it's as simple as that.
    They attack us because they use the US as a convenient scapegoat knowing how gullible the UN and Libruls throughout the globe are which provides cover for their murderous ways which do nothing to serve God or Allah but merely serve the purposes of self promoting thugs who rely on the willing denial of the world and the ignorance of their followers to sustain their megalomaniacal self important image.

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    Re: "Islamic Terrorism" - Dependent or Independent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Correct, and Palestinian-Arab terrorism has predated Irgun by over a decade. (1921)
    Haganah formed the year before that. More importantly, of course, do attempt to make some remark relevant to the thread. Rebuttal of my quoted post would be dashing.

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    Re: "Islamic Terrorism" - Dependent or Independent?

    I'm surprised to see the way that reefedjib voted. He's the most candid jingoist on the forum and possibly the most extreme.

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    Re: "Islamic Terrorism" - Dependent or Independent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    I'm surprised to see the way that reefedjib voted. He's the most candid jingoist on the forum and possibly the most extreme.
    The most extreme? Really?

    You did talk me into realizing that I was a jingoist. It doesn't mean I don't care for the welfare of people around the world. That's very much in my personal interest and our countries interest. That is why I am quite proud about all of the good things we do in the world, like $15 billion dollars to Africa or the tsunami relief in Indonesia. I honestly don't know what to do about Africa, though.

    Our pushing of western values, into traditionalist societies, causes a severe cultural backlash. Terrorism is no surprise.

    How were you able to see how I voted?
    Last edited by reefedjib; 11-02-09 at 07:56 PM.

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    Re: "Islamic Terrorism" - Dependent or Independent?

    The poll is public, by intent. I'm not surprised to see most of the votes go the way they did, with most people voting exactly as I knew they would.

    Rational moral agents, ultimately, are not divided on the basis of nationality. The average U.S. citizen possesses no greater sensory capacities and consequent ability to suffer than the Kenyan or Mongolian citizen does, and equivalent suffering imposed on either is consequently of equivalent value.

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    Re: "Islamic Terrorism" - Dependent or Independent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    The poll is public, by intent. I'm not surprised to see most of the votes go the way they did, with most people voting exactly as I knew they would.
    Ok, I found it. You click on the number of votes.

    So mine surprised you. There was a lot of truth to bin Laden's words to the west which is why his message resonates with so many people from the Islamic world. He's a brilliant man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Rational moral agents, ultimately, are not divided on the basis of nationality. The average U.S. citizen possesses no greater sensory capacities and consequent ability to suffer than the Kenyan or Mongolian citizen does, and equivalent suffering imposed on either is consequently of equivalent value.
    What's a moral agent? What does that mean?

    I do see your point and I agree with it to a degree. But where do you feel nationality fits in? Because I am frankly proud of a lot of what my country does in the world. I'll grant you that there is a lot we have done for which there is no reason to feel proud: bombing Iraq back to the stone age in Gulf War 1, installing dictators in Latin America... But on balance, I feel we are a positive force in the world. I think pushing our values is a good thing, even though there is resistance to it.

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