View Poll Results: Is the term "illegal alien" offensive?

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  • Yes

    13 19.12%
  • No

    52 76.47%
  • Other (please explain)

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Thread: "Illegal Alien"

  1. #31
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    Re: "Illegal Alien"

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    I have no problem with illegal alien, but "illegals" by itself seems dehumanizing.
    There's nothing dehumanizing about it, it is expressly pointing out that they have violated the law. If that's dehumanizing, they have no one to blame but themselves.
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  2. #32
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    Re: "Illegal Alien"

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    I already explained precisely why the term is propagandistic; "the term 'alien' specifically is a propagandistic one used to convey an image of severe detachment and a complete and utter lack of commonalities between U.S. citizens and illegal immigrants. It's thus used to escape serious consideration or analysis of the general topic, which is why the authoritarian and anti-immigration talking heads are usually largely ignorant of the legitimate economic consequences of illegal immigrants' presence and their own proposed policies."
    And I call bull**** because you have posted no evidence to prove it was created for "propaganda."

    I looked and found nothing so I am not going to take your word for it, sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    That's a perfect recipe for authoritarianism and unethical and unfeasible policy. It's the trade liberalization that most self-identified "libertarians" and other economic rightists in the U.S. advocate that exacerbates the inequitable international wage differentials between the U.S. and Mexico and displaces rural farmers and associated agricultural workers, first driving them into urban areas of Mexico and then into the U.S. itself.
    That's Mexico's problem, not the US. It only becomes a problem when our government openly supports and condones illegals coming in and not enforcing our laws already on the books. I don't see Canadians running across the border illegally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    To place authoritarian restrictions on border crossing after having imposed neoliberal policies is the effective equivalent of infecting someone with a virus and then maliciously stealing the antidote and running away, laughing maniacally just for added effect.
    In what realm of fantasy land?
    Last edited by Black Dog; 10-19-09 at 03:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  3. #33
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    Re: "Illegal Alien"

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Muy bueno, mi Amigo.
    IMO, that's an obnoxious language if I ever heard one. I agree with the Zapatistas; the "upper class" Mexican government officials who only speak Spanish are more ignorant than those who've learned Spanish specifically to communicate with them but have Tzotzil as their natural tongue. It strikes me as elitist as a result, I guess.

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    Re: "Illegal Alien"

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    And I call bull**** because you have posted no evidence to prove it was created for "propaganda."

    I looked and found nothing so I am not going to take your word for it, sorry.
    You've not attempted to dispute my own argument. If you're trying to claim that propaganda is explicitly identified as such upon its creation, then there's more than one thing you need to research.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    That's Mexico's problem, not the US. It only becomes a problem when our government openly supports and condones illegals coming in and not enforcing our laws already on the books.
    "Mexico" isn't an independent or conscious entity, just as "the U.S." is not an independent or conscious entity. For example, both the U.S. and Mexican financial and political classes are complicit when it comes to the consequences of NAFTA (though I'd say the former are somewhat more guilty), but rural peasantry had little influence in the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    In what realm of fantasy land?
    That of accurate analogies. I see this is another thing you've not attempted to dispute.

  5. #35
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    Re: "Illegal Alien"

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    You've not attempted to dispute my own argument. If you're trying to claim that propaganda is explicitly identified as such upon its creation, then there's more than one thing you need to research.
    I am asking you to back up your accusation with something tangible, and you can't.

    It figures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    "Mexico" isn't an independent or conscious entity, just as "the U.S." is not an independent or conscious entity. For example, both the U.S. and Mexican financial and political classes are complicit when it comes to the consequences of NAFTA (though I'd say the former are somewhat more guilty), but rural peasantry had little influence in the matter.
    So what? Makes it no less a US problem because of Mexico's government. We are not the caretakers of the world. If Mexico can't take care of it's own, thats to bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    That of accurate analogies. I see this is another thing you've not attempted to dispute.
    Nothing to dispute, it is your opinion, so it means little.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 10-19-09 at 03:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  6. #36
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    Re: "Illegal Alien"

    There was only one portion of your post that even had the illusion of an argument about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    So what? Makes it no less a US problem because of Mexico's government. We are not the caretakers of the world. If Mexico can't take care of it's own, thats to bad.
    Are you missing something? It's a matter of trade liberalization initiated and expanded by the U.S. political and financial classes that's destabilized and uprooted the Mexican rural class. Your focus should be on the U.S. capital class, not on a displaced farmer from Sonora.

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    Re: "Illegal Alien"

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    There was only one portion of your post that even had the illusion of an argument about.
    In other words you can't prove or back up with evidence anything you have said. I understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Are you missing something? It's a matter of trade liberalization initiated and expanded by the U.S.
    And Mexico and Canda Oh no! They were all in on it. Don't try and make it sound like it was just the US.

    I love members of the blame the US crowed for EVERYTHING.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    political and financial classes that's destabilized and uprooted the Mexican rural class. Your focus should be on the U.S. capital class, not on a displaced farmer from Sonora.
    They were ****ed long before NAFTA, so that is bull****. It's not like they weren't flooding across the border long before that happened. Jeesh.

    Take your head out of you anti-US ass.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 10-19-09 at 03:57 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  8. #38
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    Re: "Illegal Alien"

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    And Mexico and Canda Oh no! They were all in on it. Don't try and make it sound like it was just the US.

    I love members of the blame the US crowed for EVERYTHING.
    Actually, I could never be so audacious as to claim that the political and financial classes constituted the "U.S."; that would ignore the vast majority of the citizenry of the U.S. Regardless, the point you're attempting to make is that "Mexico" was a willing participant of trade liberalization, when the Mexican political and financial classes were the proponents of an agenda so antithetical to the interests of the rural peasantry that it sparked a violent revolt in Chiapas by the EZLN.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    They were ****ed long before NAFTA, so that is bull****. It's not like they weren't flooding across the border long before that happened. Jeesh.

    Take your head out of you anti-US ass.
    Was there or was there not a substantial increase in illegal immigration in the 1990's? My point was that inequitable international wage differentials were exacerbated by the expansion of trade liberalization, not that they were created by it. And expansion of appropriate fair trade strategy would reduce those differentials, and consequently, the motivation for immigration as well as not rob U.S. beneficiaries of trade of the benefits of the more liberal policies.

  9. #39
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    Re: "Illegal Alien"

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Actually, I could never be so audacious as to claim that the political and financial classes constituted the "U.S."; that would ignore the vast majority of the citizenry of the U.S. Regardless, the point you're attempting to make is that "Mexico" was a willing participant of trade liberalization, when the Mexican political and financial classes were the proponents of an agenda so antithetical to the interests of the rural peasantry that it sparked a violent revolt in Chiapas by the EZLN.
    No. I was trying to say you were wrong to place blame on the US, and that Mexico was a willing partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Was there or was there not a substantial increase in illegal immigration in the 1990's?
    It was increasing yearly at an accelerated rate even before. I think what had a much bigger impact was the fact we were actually enforcing the law back then. Then under Bush that went away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    My point was that inequitable international wage differentials were exacerbated by the expansion of trade liberalization, not that they were created by it. And expansion of appropriate fair trade strategy would reduce those differentials, and consequently, the motivation for immigration as well as not rob U.S. beneficiaries of trade of the benefits of the more liberal policies.
    I see your point, but I completely disagree.

    Each country needs to fend for itself. With no boarders it would be chaos.

    I also don't want to lose my standard of living or live in your version of communist utopia, sorry.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 10-19-09 at 04:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  10. #40
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    Re: "Illegal Alien"

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No. I was trying to say you were wrong to place blame on the US, and that Mexico was a willing partner.



    It was increasing yearly at an accelerated rate even before. I think what had a much bigger impact was the fact we were actually enforcing the law back then. Then in the 90's under Clinton that went away.



    I see your point, but I completely disagree.

    Each country needs to fend for itself. With no boarders it would be chaos.

    I also don't want to lose my standard of living or live in your version of communist utopia, sorry.
    actually, under clinton we increased the number of employers fined, and under bush we stopped almost completely.

    fine the employers, secure the borders.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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