View Poll Results: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

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Thread: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

  1. #61
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    Re: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    How do you mean. Are you talking about civil unions? Because they still don't confer the same benefits in most states or companies. To me, that's a clear cut civil rights issue.
    Taking California as the example, the only civil rights gays have trouble accessing are either federal regulations (something the state can not remedy but would not be an issue if Domestic Partnership were Federalized) such as immigration status for spouses, or are wrinkles currently being ironed out, such as non-compliant employers or policies which now need to be rewritten in part.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Now I'm lost. A childless hetero couple has tons of rights being denied a childless gay couple. What exactly do you propose to restore equality between the two situations?
    Childless hetero couples were always seen as a benign exception to the rule, but childlessness was never promoted.

    The main gay-marriage arguments promote childlessness, something "marriage" per-se has never been about.

    I propose allowing any, again, ANY child-rearing couple to marry, and banning any and all childless couples regardless of their composition. I would even support incest for this reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I didn't say that. I said you want to have legal heterosexual marriage because you're heterosexual. Same like gay people want to have legal homosexual marriage because they're homosexual. So, your argument that "the reason you support hetero marriage isn't equality" doesn't have bearing. You can support whatever kind of marriage you want, but you can't oppose somebody else's right to be married because that would violate the principal of equality.
    You would do well to ask what my motivations are instead of assuming them and going from there. Your basic assumption is wrong and thus the argument you've based it on crumbles.

    I wanted to make a family. As you can tell from my argument, I have no intention of stopping anyone else from making a family.

    If gay-marriage is going to be about sweeping existing problems under the rug in the name of identity-politics and feel-good legislation, then I'll oppose legalizing gay-marriage even-though I would like to see child-rearing gays wed.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    You shouldn't. You just shouldn't oppose it. If something causes suffering for another group, your only ethically legitimate positions are to favor ending the suffering because you magnanimously want to do something positive for another group, or to stay out of it because it doesn't involve you. To perpetuate suffering for another group when it doesn't effect you? That is not an ethically acceptable position.
    Empathy for others would be an effect on me. If gay-marriage doesn't effect me, that inherently, automatically means I'm not epithetic to their plight.

    ***
    From my perspective, the current gay-marriage arguments and rationals harm me directly because they perpetuate if not exacerbate the divorce rate and related juvenile crime/abortion/teen-pregnancy rate, which in turn harm the economy.
    Last edited by Jerry; 10-17-09 at 10:31 PM.

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    Re: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    The bottom line is, if people want gays to have marriage rights, they'd happen. Let's stop hiding behind all this constitutional garbage about how they don't need the right, and blah blah blah. There is nothing wrong with them having the right. There are too many assumptions about what homosexuality is that are blocking the discussion. All the legal minutiae being debated are just a cover for core feelings.

    Eventually gays will be able to marry everywhere in the Western world. The opposition are just delaying the inevitable. There is no logical argument against it.
    Glad to see anti-intellectualism has such a strong wing in Gay Rights.

    Yes, who cares about Rule of Law, all this "Constitutional Garbage!" Let's all bow down to your feelings and what your 'gut' is telling you.
    Last edited by Metternich; 10-17-09 at 10:40 PM.

  3. #63
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    Re: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Taking California as the example, the only civil rights gays have trouble accessing are either federal regulations (something the state can not remedy but would not be an issue if Domestic Partnership were Federalized) such as immigration status for spouses, or are wrinkles currently being ironed out, such as non-compliant employers or policies which now need to be rewritten in part.
    Well, then you get into 'separate but equal', which isn't something the SCOTUS has historically considered a valid position. Separate but equal, even if the accomodations are exactly the same, sends a message that one group is inferior to the other, hence they need to be separated. So, separate is inherently unequal.

    But, that wouldn't come into play unless domestic partnerships were actually equal. You're right that federalizing it would help by alleviating the reciprocity issues and states that are lagging on domestic partnership rules. Also, yes, employers, hospitals, banks, insurance companies, etc would need to be forced to provide the same treatment for domestic partnerships as they do for marriages. If all that happened nation wide, yeah, that would be pretty comprable.

    But why would you support that, but oppose marriage if it's the same thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The main gay-marriage arguments promote childlessness, something "marriage" per-se has never been about.
    How so? The gay community has been campaigning for adoption applications to be treated equally forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I propose allowing any, again, ANY child-rearing couple to marry, and banning any and all childless couples regardless of their composition. I would even support incest for this reason.
    Why would marriage rights only be available to couples with children? The 'benefits' of marriage almost all pertain with rights you have to join your lot with the person you marry. What does that have to do with children?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    From my perspective, the current gay-marriage arguments and rationals harm me directly because they perpetuate if not exacerbate the divorce rate and related juvenile crime/abortion/teen-pregnancy rate, which in turn harm the economy.
    Whoa, lets see some evidence for those claims. Do you have studies or anything supporting that view?

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    Re: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

    Constitutional right or not, it's none of the Government's damn business.
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

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    Re: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Well, then you get into 'separate but equal', which isn't something the SCOTUS has historically considered a valid position. Separate but equal, even if the accomodations are exactly the same, sends a message that one group is inferior to the other, hence they need to be separated. So, separate is inherently unequal.
    Brown-v-Board of Education found no problem with separate but equal so long as neither was superior to the other.

    The Deceleration of Independence affirms separate but equal, as does the constitution when forming Representation.

    Separate but equal has been opposed on a case by case basis, and each time for very specific reasons.

    Separate but equal is not automatically tossed out.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    But, that wouldn't come into play unless domestic partnerships were actually equal. You're right that federalizing it would help by alleviating the reciprocity issues and states that are lagging on domestic partnership rules. Also, yes, employers, hospitals, banks, insurance companies, etc would need to be forced to provide the same treatment for domestic partnerships as they do for marriages. If all that happened nation wide, yeah, that would be pretty comprable.

    But why would you support that, but oppose marriage if it's the same thing?
    Socially, I want to see child-rearing couples held with higher esteem than childless couples. I firmly assert that couples raising children are genuinely better and more valuable than childless couples. They are not equal, so while couple are entitles to equality under the law, there is no right to be socially equal.


    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    How so? The gay community has been campaigning for adoption applications to be treated equally forever.
    They've been using that front as a tool to advance gay-marriage per-se. Raising children has never been pro-gm's top priority.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Why would marriage rights only be available to couples with children? The 'benefits' of marriage almost all pertain with rights you have to join your lot with the person you marry. What does that have to do with children?
    The only reason the state has any interest in your relationship to begin with is that you're raising children. Proper education, health, freedom form abuse, all lead to productive citizens. If your relationship is not raising productive citizens, the state has no reason to interfere with your relationship, positively or negatively.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Whoa, lets see some evidence for those claims. Do you have studies or anything supporting that view?
    Why are you asking for studies on my perspective? Are my posts and the fact that give you my opinion directly not sufficient to prove that this is in fact how I view the issue?

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    Re: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Constitutional right or not, it's none of the Government's damn business.
    Ahh very well then, we'll all oppose gay-marriage because it expands an institution which shouldn't even exist.

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    Re: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Brown-v-Board of Education found no problem with separate but equal so long as neither was superior to the other.
    Incorrect. In Brown v Board of Ed they found that the black and white schools were "equalized, or are being equalized, with respect to buildings, curricula, qualifications and salaries of teachers, and other "tangible" factors:", however they ruled that segregation itself caused inequality because "the policy of separating the races is usually interpreted as denoting the inferiority of the negro group". That is why they ruled that, in education, separate is inherently unequal. The same logic applies to marriage vs. civil unions.

    Civil Rights: Brown v. Board of Education I (1954)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Socially, I want to see child-rearing couples held with higher esteem than childless couples. I firmly assert that couples raising children are genuinely better and more valuable than childless couples. They are not equal, so while couple are entitles to equality under the law, there is no right to be socially equal.
    You're entitled to your opinion as long as you stick to backing equality under the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    They've been using that front as a tool to advance gay-marriage per-se. Raising children has never been pro-gm's top priority.
    Far out. I've always seen it the exact opposite way. Adoption has always been a lightening rod issue for the anti-gay-rights crowd. It mobilizes antipathy towards gay rights, not support for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Why are you asking for studies on my perspective? Are my posts and the fact that give you my opinion directly not sufficient to prove that this is in fact how I view the issue?
    No. You were not expressing a subjective opinion, you were making factual claims that gay marriage increases the rates of divorce, juvenile crime, abortion and teen-pregnancy. Those are statistical claims, not opinions. They either need to be supported with evidence or rejected.

  8. #68
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    Re: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Ahh very well then, we'll all oppose gay-marriage because it expands an institution which shouldn't even exist.
    Which doesn't deal with the reality of the situation, only the wishful thinking that many libertarians engage in. They don't like what already exists so they'll oppose equality even though there's no way in hell what already exists is ever going away.

    Guys... meet reality. Might do you some good.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Incorrect. In Brown v Board of Ed they found that the black and white schools were "equalized, or are being equalized, with respect to buildings, curricula, qualifications and salaries of teachers, and other "tangible" factors:", however they ruled that segregation itself caused inequality because "the policy of separating the races is usually interpreted as denoting the inferiority of the negro group". That is why they ruled that, in education, separate is inherently unequal. The same logic applies to marriage vs. civil unions.

    Civil Rights: Brown v. Board of Education I (1954)
    Segregation of white and colored children in public schools has a detrimental effect upon the colored children. The impact is greater when it has the sanction of the law, for the policy of separating the races is usually interpreted as denoting the inferiority of the negro group. A sense of inferiority affects the motivation of a child to learn. Segregation with the sanction of law, therefore, has a tendency to [retard] the educational and mental development of negro children and to deprive them of some of the benefits they would receive in a racial[ly] integrated school system.
    Again, childless couples are in fact inferior to child-rearing couples. I have no problem discriminating against and segregating childless couples.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    You're entitled to your opinion as long as you stick to backing equality under the law.
    I'm entitled to my opinion even if I refuse to adhere to your artificial requirements.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No. You were not expressing a subjective opinion, you were making factual claims that gay marriage increases the rates of divorce, juvenile crime, abortion and teen-pregnancy. Those are statistical claims, not opinions. They either need to be supported with evidence or rejected.
    Where did I make a gay-specific comment like that?

    Quote please?

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    Re: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Which doesn't deal with the reality of the situation, only the wishful thinking that many libertarians engage in. They don't like what already exists so they'll oppose equality even though there's no way in hell what already exists is ever going away.

    Guys... meet reality. Might do you some good.
    I'm ****ing with him, step off.

    Sometimes I say **** just to demonstrate to someone how their argument backfires.

    "If gay-marriage doesn't affect you then you shouldn't oppose it".

    Yeah well ok then if gay marriage doesn't affect me then I shouldn't support it either.

    "Right you should just remain neutral"

    Very well, I will as long as you do. What's this now? You put it on the ballet? Not very neutral of you. Now you've forced me to take a side, as it's my civil duty to cast a vote, and you only gave me 2 options, yes or no. Hmm which way to go....well the pro-gm side is not addressing the real problems, so I'm going to vote against out of general hostility twords distractions from achieving goals.

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