View Poll Results: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

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Thread: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

  1. #231
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    Re: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Who said differently(as far as starting after the civil war?)? And of course Jim Crow had to do with States rights. That you don't know this is ridiculous
    Whats ridicules is your reading comprehension. Please point out where I said "Jim Crow had nothing to do with states rights."

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Entirely related. It is as related as the KKK is to the Civil war, Southern poverty etc.
    I never said it was unrelated? Are you actually reading what I posted or just chanting some mantra?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Most prevalent one as justified by the 4 states who issued legal documents for siding with the South, the Vice President of the Confederacy and many other legal documents of the time.
    Top Five Causes of the Civil War:

    1. Economic and social differences between the North and the South.
    2. States versus federal rights.
    3. The fight between Slave and Non-Slave State Proponents.
    4. Growth of the Abolition Movement.
    5. The election of Abraham Lincoln.
    - What were the main reasons for the start of the civil war? - Yahoo! Answers

    Hmmm... looks like your revisionist history class has failed you yet again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I think I touched a bone.
    If you say so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Irrelevant. The states defended their perceived 'right' to own slaves. This ridiculous perception people have that 'States rights' is anything other than Dixiecrat-Republican-Southern double speak falls flat on it's face when one looks at the history of the term 'State's rights'.
    In your opinion...

    Top Five Causes of the Civil War

    You mite also want to get the Southern view...

    Causes of the Civil War (Confederate View)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    [States' rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    States' rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Seriously. Don't question my knowledge of the Civil rights. You'll lose. Really fast.
    Does not look like it.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 10-20-09 at 01:07 PM.
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  2. #232
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    Re: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    And therefor any question of it being 'a Constitutional right' is irrelevant. It can not be denied by the States under the Constitution.
    That has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
    Did you have an argument against my position regarding that topic, or were you going to continue to troll?

  3. #233
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    Re: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Whats ridicules is your reading comprehension. Please point out where I said "Jim Crow had nothing to do with states rights."
    Then why point out that Jim Crow laws came "after" the civil war? Or was it just adding information to my post?

    I never said it was unrelated? Are you actually reading what I posted or just chanting some mantra?
    This is false :

    Lynchings again started AFTER the civil war and again had nothing to do with it.
    If they had nothing to do with each other then by definition they are not related. And of course they did. The same way bombings by the ALF are related to radical far left groups like PETA and PETA is related to far leftist environmentalist mentality. That is the same way that KKK lynchings are related to pro-segregationist mentality which in turn is related to Civil War which is in turn related to the Civil War and Southern secessionist movements.

    Top Five Causes of the Civil War:

    1. Economic and social differences between the North and the South.
    2. States versus federal rights.
    3. The fight between Slave and Non-Slave State Proponents.
    4. Growth of the Abolition Movement.
    5. The election of Abraham Lincoln.
    - What were the main reasons for the start of the civil war? - Yahoo! Answers
    Seriously. Yahoo Answers is your source for this? Here I'll let the states Mississippi, Texas & South Carolina do the talking :

    Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Confederate States of America - Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union
    We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.
    Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - A Declaration of the Causes which Impel the State of Texas to Secede from the Federal Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Confederate States of America - A Declaration of the Causes which Impel the State of Texas to Secede from the Federal Union
    Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people. She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them?
    Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Mississippi Secession

    Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.
    Any speak of 'economic' differences between the South and North are secondary in nature and smoke screens for whatever 'economic' problem you pro-Confederacy types have concocted. The states that issued secession statements all put slavery at the forefront of their grievances. They did not put the production of cotton production but the workforce(slaves) they employed as the reason they went to war.

    Hmmm... looks like your revisionist history class has failed you yet again.

    In your opinion...

    Top Five Causes of the Civil War
    Not my opinion. And Yale isn't in the business of revisionist history. Please try using primary sources from now on? Instead of going by what about.com tells you. But if you must repeat the same source 4 or 5 times Here I'll give you some more information on this matter because you seem to be lacking key information :

    Do you know who Alexander H. Stephen was? Probably do. But in case you don't :

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Stephens]Alexander Stephens - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    Alexander Hamilton Stephens (February 11, 1812 March 4, 1883) was an American politician from Georgia. He was Vice President of the Confederate States of America during the American Civil War. He also served as a U.S. Representative from Georgia (both before the Civil War and after Reconstruction) and as Governor of Georgia from 1882 until his death in 1883.
    Anyways he gave a speech on March 21st 1861 where he stated the Confederacy's immediate reason:

    Cornerstone Speech by Alexander H. Stephens

    Quote Originally Posted by Cornerstone Speech Alexander H. Stephens March 21, 1861 Savannah, Georgia
    'The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution -- African slavery as it exists amongst us -- the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew." Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition.
    Ah yes. Civilwarhome.com - a notoriously pro-Confederate website. Here I'll explain to you why 'States' rights' is Dixiecrat-Republican-Southern speak for protection of their 'right' to own slaves. States' rights is not a concept, it is not a concrete idea, it is not even an ideology. It is a justification, and this justification has been used for two main reasons :

    1. Protect slavery as an institution in multiple states.
    2. Create legislation creating a barrier between the privileges each

    The first of these reasons I've already provided plenty of first hand evidence supporting it(see above), the second is verified by :

    The History of Jim Crow

    Miscegenation statutes, intended to prevent racial interbreeding, led the list of Jim Crow laws enacted. At least 127 laws prohibiting interracial marriage and cohabitation were passed between 1865 and the 1950s nationwide, with 37 percent of the statutes passed outside the South. Western states enacted 33 such laws (27 percent). Both whites and blacks who ignored the law could receive sentences for up to ten years hard labor in the penitentiary in a number of states. Punishment for miscegenation in state statutes was still in force in the 1960s in Delaware, Florida, Indiana, Maryland, Mississippi, and North Carolina.
    But I'm sure about.com and Yahoo! Answers are right and Yale...isn't?...

    Before you make accusations of revisionism, please understand that these are primary sources from the people who were actually there. Not what people on user powered websites say.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  4. #234
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    Re: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    That has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
    Is marriage a right or a privilege Goobieman?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Is marriage a right or a privilege Goobieman?
    You already quoted my position on the issue.
    Did you have an argument against my position, or were you going to continue to troll?

  6. #236
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    Re: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You already quoted my position on the issue.
    Did you have an argument against my position, or were you going to continue to troll?
    I stated that your post is a contradiction. If states recognize marriage as a privilege then they can not under the Constitution deny it to gay couples anymore then they can bar black people from driving.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 10-20-09 at 05:33 PM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I stated that your post is a contradiction
    You may have made that claim, but certainly you havent shown your claim to be true.

    How, exactly, is my position a contradiction?

    (This should be good!)

  8. #238
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    Re: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You may have made that claim, but certainly you havent shown your claim to be true.

    How, exactly, is my position a contradiction?

    (This should be good!)
    Wow we're going in circles thanks once again to your inability to admit you opened mouth and inserted foot but here :

    1. The 14th amendment makes it clear that states can not deny citizens of the U.S. privileges.

    2. You : marriage is a privilege.

    3. If marriage is a privilege and states can not deny privileges then they have no grounds to deny marriage to gay couples.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  9. #239
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    Re: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Wow we're going in circles thanks once again to your inability to admit you opened mouth and inserted foot but here :

    1. The 14th amendment makes it clear that states can not deny citizens of the U.S. privileges.

    2. You : marriage is a privilege.

    3. If marriage is a privilege and states can not deny privileges then they have no grounds to deny marriage to gay couples.
    What you fail to recognize is that (1) and (3) have nothing to do with my position (2), and so your posting of (1) and (3) do not affect my position in any way shape of form.

    Your failure to recongize this is either deliberate, in which case you are simply trolling, or it is an honest inability to comprehend, in which case you arent cabale of having this conversation.

    Either way, my position that marriage is a privilege remains sound and supported; when you are interested in arguing against that position, and you develop the capability to do so, let me know.

    Meanwhile, troll on...

  10. #240
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    Re: Is Gay Marriage a Constitutional Right in the U.S.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    So a friend of mine posted this on Facebook:
    Barack Obama Ignores The 14th Amendment When It Comes To Same-Sex Marriage Equality Across America

    And it got me thinking. The 14th Amendment states:
    “No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    According to Loving v Virginia (Loving v. Virginia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), this means that marriage requirements cannot be based on race.

    So does this mean, then, that the right to marriage cannot be restricted based on gender?

    I am interested to see what people think of this.
    Part in bold is the only relevant part for gays.

    Gender is not race. Under the equal law paragraph the US state should provide gays equal protection under the law as a married couple. But marriage is a ceremony by the church, and gays definetely should not be able to force the church to marry them, therefor the state must provide them a document which entitle them equal rights. Is my fair interpretation..

    Aside from that I think gay relations and the accomodations of such as is happening in our society is completely wrong and utterly ridiculous. As is giving women the same right without giving them the same obligations as men. As in example of countries with drafts where women are quoted into boards of directors, but not quoted into military drafting. Not drafted at all actually. Equal rights should be equal rights, no exception.
    Last edited by Maximus Zeebra; 10-21-09 at 04:37 PM.
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