Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car?

Black Dog · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Lightdemon said:
I don't think the rules ignored intent, at all. I imagine if the school found that the student intended to use the pocket knife to injure another student, the school would be expelling the eagle scout instead of just issuing a suspension.

It was locked in his car. A 20 day suspension is not warranted by a 2" pocket knife locked in a car.

The story said nothing about taking the knife to injure anyone. So no "intent" existed.

Lightdemon said:
I think that the school may have considered intent and was trying to give the eagle scout the minimum punishment, which could have been the 20 some odd days. I don't know, it varies from district to district, state to state.

The story even after a search said nothing about intent. It said the knife was locked in his own vehicle.

So far your argument amounts to: well it could have been this way. I am stating fact based on what was reported not speculation that is irrelevant.

For example...

Man is drunk and accidentally walks into the wrong house (happens quite a bit) and is charged with criminal trespass, not burglary. Because no intent to commit a crime existed.

Accidents happen and the school should recognize this and act accordingly.

Zero tolerance is moronic at best. Let the punishment fit the crime.

rathi · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

So would you want the schools to choose convenience for the student over their safety?

Yes. The danger is small enough to be completely irrelevant. Organized sports are far more dangerous, and thus get school funding.

And let me just set this straight, because it seems that everyone is thinking that I'm supporting this school's decision, I'm not. I think the punishment is way too harsh, it doesn't make any sense. However, I do support the zero-tolerance policy. I do not want any weapons on campus if it can be prevented. The level of punishment has to be determined, at the same time a minimum level of punishment (perhaps 1-2 day suspension) must be set.

A pocket knife is not a weapon! It is impractical to cause another person serious injury with one, and people don't even try to use it as such.

Lightdemon · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

rathi said:
When I was a TA, I fixed my teachers classroom computer after some components failed.

Did you need a knife? Did you even have to take off the cover to repair it?

Ever tired to cut real bread with one of those knives? Or hard cheese?

When's the last time you had public school cafeteria food?

Unless the backing material is something thick like cardboard.

I'm pretty sure scissors can handle that...

What risk? You haven't demonstrated the danger of pocket knives.

Anything can be used as a weapon. I don't have to demonstrate specifically how a pocket knife can be a danger because damn near everything can be a weapon. What I said was this: I do not want any weapons on campus if it can be prevented.

A pair of scissors can be used as a weapon, but because classrooms use scissors on a regular basis, it is reasonable to have scissors on campus, so it cannot be prevented. Knives are not the same.

Lightdemon · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

rathi said:
Yes. The danger is small enough to be completely irrelevant. Organized sports are far more dangerous, and thus get school funding.

How are you comparing organized sports and pocket knives?? I don't understand.

A pocket knife is not a weapon! It is impractical to cause another person serious injury with one, and people don't even try to use it as such.

Anything can be a weapon.

Lightdemon · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Blackdog said:
It was locked in his car. A 20 day suspension is not warranted by a 2" pocket knife locked in a car.

The story said nothing about taking the knife to injure anyone. So no "intent" existed.

Sigh....I was giving you a hypothetical...:doh

The story even after a search said nothing about intent. It said the knife was locked in his own vehicle.

So far your argument amounts to: well it could have been this way. I am stating fact based on what was reported not speculation that is irrelevant.

For example...

Man is drunk and accidentally walks into the wrong house (happens quite a bit) and is charged with criminal trespass, not burglary. Because no intent to commit a crime existed.

Accidents happen and the school should recognize this and act accordingly.

Zero tolerance is moronic at best. Let the punishment fit the crime.

I think you've misread what I posted...

Black Dog · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Lightdemon said:
Anything can be used as a weapon. I don't have to demonstrate specifically how a pocket knife can be a danger because damn near everything can be a weapon. What I said was this: I do not want any weapons on campus if it can be prevented.

A pair of scissors can be used as a weapon, but because classrooms use scissors on a regular basis, it is reasonable to have scissors on campus, so it cannot be prevented. Knives are not the same.

Does anyone else see the irony here?

A 2" pocket knife vs 3" to 6" scissors? :doh The whole school should be suspended then because of "zero tolerance" oh wait, they are making an exception?

Again I say let the punishment fit the crime.

Black Dog · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Lightdemon said:
Sigh....I was giving you a hypothetical...:doh

That had nothing to do with what I was saying. :2wave:

Lightdemon said:
I think you've misread what I posted...

"I think that the school may have considered intent and was trying to give the eagle scout the minimum punishment, which could have been the 20 some odd days. I don't know, it varies from district to district, state to state. - Lightdemon

Nope nail hit firmly by me.

Lightdemon · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Blackdog said:
Does anyone else see the irony here?

A 2" pocket knife vs 3" to 6" scissors? :doh The whole school should be suspended then because of "zero tolerance" oh wait, they are making an exception?

Again I say let the punishment fit the crime.

Hey, I think the punishment should fit the crime too. That's what I've been saying all along!

The only difference between me and you (and a few others) is that I don't think zero-tolerance policy are always bad. It has it's faults, yes, but it also has it uses as well.

Black Dog · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Lightdemon said:
Hey, I think the punishment should fit the crime too. That's what I've been saying all along!

The only difference between me and you (and a few others) is that I don't think zero-tolerance policy are always bad. It has it's faults, yes, but it also has it uses as well.

I disagree, zero tolerance has no use in a civilized society. If you believe the punishment should fit the crime then zero tolerance should make no sense to you either. Yet you try and justify it?

Lightdemon · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Blackdog said:
That had nothing to do with what I was saying. :2wave:

You said that the rule was ignoring intent, i showed that it was not ignored. If indeed intent was found, then the student would have been expelled. Since intent was not found, the student will now have to receive the minimum punishment, which is likely to be the 20 days.

In this explanation, intent was NOT ignored.

"I think that the school may have considered intent and was trying to give the eagle scout the minimum punishment, which could have been the 20 some odd days. I don't know, it varies from district to district, state to state. - Lightdemon

Nope nail hit firmly by me.

I think you may be confused...

Lightdemon · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Blackdog said:
I disagree, zero tolerance has no use in a civilized society. If you believe the punishment should fit the crime then zero tolerance should make no sense to you either. Yet you try and justify it?

In one of your previous posts you used this as one of your examples:

For example...

Man is drunk and accidentally walks into the wrong house (happens quite a bit) and is charged with criminal trespass, not burglary. Because no intent to commit a crime existed.

Accidents happen and the school should recognize this and act accordingly.

Zero tolerance is moronic at best. Let the punishment fit the crime.

The drunk man broken a law, despite having no intent to cause harm. Yet legally he will be punished, right? You don't have a problem with that do you?

This is the same for the eagle scout, is it not?

Black Dog · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Lightdemon said:
You said that the rule was ignoring intent, i showed that it was not ignored.

I said zero tolerance ignores intent.

You showed a hypothetical that had nothing to do with the facts of the story.

Lightdemon said:
If indeed intent was found, then the student would have been expelled. Since intent was not found, the student will now have to receive the minimum punishment, which is likely to be the 20 days.

What part of 20 days is not the minimum for anything are you missing?

Lightdemon said:
In this explanation, intent was NOT ignored.

According to whom? In the story it says nothing but "zero tolerance" so where are you getting this information? Or are you making it up?

If he had got a 2 or 3 day suspension you mite have had a point. 20 days is ridicules for having a pocket knife locked in your ****ing car.

Lightdemon said:
I think you may be confused...

Keep dreaming.

Black Dog · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Lightdemon said:
In one of your previous posts you used this as one of your examples:

The drunk man broken a law, despite having no intent to cause harm. Yet legally he will be punished, right? You don't have a problem with that do you?

This is the same for the eagle scout, is it not?

Wow you just don't get it.

Criminal trespass is a low misdemeanor involving no jail time 90% of the time. Even if it does it is less than a year. Burglary can be a felony and involve up to 10 years in prison.

This is not about getting punished. It is about the punishment fitting the crime.

Lightdemon · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Blackdog said:
I said zero tolerance ignores intent.

Then why haven't the student been expelled?

The level of punishment denotes the level of offense. It's obvious the level of offense is minimal, and therefore did not require expulsion.

You showed a hypothetical that had nothing to do with the facts of the story.

But you, nor I, know anything about what the administrators are discussing. I don't know what facts you are using to determine that intent was not considered. All I have is speculation, and as far as I can tell, so are you.

What part of 20 days is not the minimum for anything are you missing?

Where does it say that it's not the minimum?

According to whom? In the story it says nothing but "zero tolerance" so where are you getting this information? Or are you making it up?

Exactly, so how do you know intent was ignored? If the student was given the minimum punishment, then I think they've considered the intent. If 20 days is the minimum, then I think the punishment, while being harsh, is as best as it's going to get for the time being (until they reform it).

Lightdemon · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Blackdog said:
Wow you just don't get it.

Criminal trespass is a low misdemeanor involving no jail time 90% of the time. Even if it does it is less than a year. Burglary can be a felony and involve up to 10 years in prison.

Right, so we're talking about the level of punishment.

If the 20 days was the minimum, then I think the action taken was the most appropriate action to take, albeit still too harsh.

Look, I think it was way too harsh. But if the school needed to give the minimum level of punishment then their hands are tied because of the zero-tolerance policy. And I acknowledge this fault.

Black Dog · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Lightdemon said:
Then why haven't the student been expelled?

The level of punishment denotes the level of offense. It's obvious the level of offense is minimal, and therefore did not require expulsion.

In what universe is a 20 day suspension minimal?

Please point out where in any article it says it is the minimum punishment?

Lightdemon said:
But you, nor I, know anything about what the administrators are discussing. I don't know what facts you are using to determine that intent was not considered. All I have is speculation, and as far as I can tell, so are you.

What part of "Zero tolerance does not take into account intent" are you missing? This is a fact. In my opinion he should be getting no punishment at all.

Lightdemon said:
Where does it say that it's not the minimum?

Common sense. :roll:

Lightdemon said:
Exactly, so how do you know intent was ignored?

Because he would not be getting a 20 days suspension or anything else for that matter. What part of "locked in his car in a case" are you missing? You did bother to read the article correct?

Lightdemon said:
If the student was given the minimum punishment, then I think they've considered the intent. If 20 days is the minimum, then I think the punishment, while being harsh, is as best as it's going to get for the time being (until they reform it).

So now the minimum is "harsh?"

Oh the irony.

Black Dog · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Lightdemon said:
Right, so we're talking about the level of punishment.

If the 20 days was the minimum, then I think the action taken was the most appropriate action to take, albeit still too harsh.

Again for the hundredth time it is not by any means a minimum. :doh

Lightdemon said:
Look, I think it was way too harsh. But if the school needed to give the minimum level of punishment then their hands are tied because of the zero-tolerance policy. And I acknowledge this fault.

If there was no zero tolerence policy, none of this would have been an issue in the first place. But I see why you tried to defend it...

"I don't think zero-tolerance policy are always bad. - Lightdemon

Lightdemon · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Blackdog said:
In what universe is a 20 day suspension minimal?

Please point out where in any article it says it is the minimum punishment?

Sigh....I already told you. I don't know if that was the minimum. I'm saying, IF the minimum was 20 days, then the action taken by the school was the appropriate action taken.

I think I may have said something that got you mad or something, and you're just not listening to a thing I'm saying. I'm sorry if I did that, but please try to at least read my words properly.

What part of "Zero tolerance does not take into account intent" are you missing?

And I'm telling you that intent was considered because of the fact that the boy scout was not expelled. The fact that he was not given maximum punishment. The fact that he was given something less than maximum means that there was some sort of discretion implicated when deciding what his punishment was to be.

Common sense. :roll:

Sorry, but that provides no substantiation on your part.

Because he would not be getting a 20 days suspension or anything else for that matter. What part of "locked in his car in a case" are you missing? You did bother to read the article correct?

And what if the 20 days was the minimum??

So now the minimum is "harsh?"

Oh the irony.

What do you think I've been saying all this time??

Like I said, I think you may be confused...

rathi · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Did you need a knife? Did you even have to take off the cover to repair it?

I needed a very small screwdriver that can fit in a cramped space. Unless you have a very complete screwdriver set, a multi-tool is what you use.

When's the last time you had public school cafeteria food?

Why do you think I was bringing the bread and cheese?

I'm pretty sure scissors can handle that...

Not practically, especially with the small scissors that schools use.

Anything can be used as a weapon. I don't have to demonstrate specifically how a pocket knife can be a danger because damn near everything can be a weapon. What I said was this: I do not want any weapons on campus if it can be prevented.

Why? What is wrong with having practical tools that aren't particularly dangerous?

Lightdemon · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Blackdog said:
Again for the hundredth time it is not by any means a minimum. :doh

Show me where in the school policy that it specifically states that 20 days suspension is not the minimum penalty for bringing a weapon to campus.

Until you do, you, nor I, have any idea what the minimum penalty is.

If there was no zero tolerence policy, none of this would have been an issue in the first place. But I see why you tried to defend it...

"I don't think zero-tolerance policy are always bad. - Lightdemon

It's quite obvious that you're angered, I don't understand why, but I apologize.

rathi · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

How are you comparing organized sports and pocket knives?? I don't understand.

Organized sports are somewhat dangerous. Every year, kids get injuries from playing them that range from minor to terminal. However, sports are encourage, even funded by schools. If you are so determined to protect kids from everything, why wouldn't you start with a clear cause of injury? Pocket knives hurt a lot less kids every year than football or soccer.

Anything can be a weapon.

Not practically. Using that as a justification for a ban is absurd. You could ban anything you felt like using such logic.

Lightdemon · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

rathi said:
I needed a very small screwdriver that can fit in a cramped space. Unless you have a very complete screwdriver set, a multi-tool is what you use.

I'm not saying this to offend, but as a teacher the last person I want repairing my computer is a high school student. Not because of the lack of expertise (as most high school students don't know how to repair computers), but also because of liability. The appropriate action the teacher should have taken was to consult the campus IT technician.

Why do you think I was bringing the bread and cheese?

:mrgreen: This made me laugh, thx.

Why? What is wrong with having practical tools that aren't particularly dangerous?

As practical as it may be, it's really unnecessary to carry the pocket knife.

Lightdemon · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

rathi said:
Organized sports are somewhat dangerous. Every year, kids get injuries from playing them that range from minor to terminal. However, sports are encourage, even funded by schools. If you are so determined to protect kids from everything, why wouldn't you start with a clear cause of injury? Pocket knives hurt a lot less kids every year than football or soccer.

I'm not trying to protect kids from everything. I'm trying to eliminate unneeded risks. Again, what I said was this: I do not want any weapons on campus if it can be prevented. I'll amend it to this for better accuracy:

I do not want any danger on campus if it can be prevented.

How's that?

Not practically. Using that as a justification for a ban is absurd. You could ban anything you felt like using such logic.

But you already know what I meant, I've explained it elsewhere already. There are tools that have it's place in a classroom, and tools that do not have a place. Just because it can be used as a weapon was not my only criteria, and you know this.

rathi · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

I'm not saying this to offend, but as a teacher the last person I want repairing my computer is a high school student. Not because of the lack of expertise (as most high school students don't know how to repair computers), but also because of liability. The appropriate action the teacher should have taken was to consult the campus IT technician.

In the world where obnoxious bureaucrats rule, that is the case . However, my teacher trusted in my skills enough to risk it rather than wait a week to get it fixed. Its a sad reflection of our society when such inefficient and pointless behavior becomes expected.

This made me laugh, thx.

So did everyone else when I tried to cut my baguette with a plastic knife.

As practical as it may be, it's really unnecessary to carry the pocket knife.

Perhaps, but it isn't necessary to punish people for carrying them either.

Lightdemon · Oct 15, 2009

Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

rathi said:
Perhaps, but it isn't necessary to punish people for carrying them either.

If there wasn't a zero-tolerance policy, I don't think so either. But because there is a zero-tolerance policy established, I would want the school to choose the minimum level of punishment for the violation. If it's 20 days, then the school has done right by me.

Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car?

Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car?

Yes. The rule against weapons on campus needs to be enforced! What sort of message does that send?

He should have gotten less time since it wasn't a very deadly weapon and his intent was not violent

I'm not sure about this one...

He should have had a warning.

What is wrong with school official these days? Seriously, this is ridiculous!

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