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Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car?

Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car?

  • Yes. The rule against weapons on campus needs to be enforced! What sort of message does that send?

    Votes: 1 2.6%
  • He should have gotten less time since it wasn't a very deadly weapon and his intent was not violent

    Votes: 2 5.3%
  • I'm not sure about this one...

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • He should have had a warning.

    Votes: 4 10.5%
  • What is wrong with school official these days? Seriously, this is ridiculous!

    Votes: 31 81.6%

  • Total voters
    38
Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

No, but they're illegal, so i don't think it'd be an issue. And I said earlier, I think a 2-inch blade is too small to matter. And what do you think administrators should use as decision criteria?

I would think that a student's record and prior behavior should be more than enough to determine if we are dealing with a gang member or an Eagle Scout...
 
Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

No, but they're illegal, so i don't think it'd be an issue. And I said earlier, I think a 2-inch blade is too small to matter. And what do you think administrators should use as decision criteria?

1. What kind of weapon it was (a pocketknife, not a Glock)
2. Where it was found (locked up in the student's car, not on his person)
3. Why the student had it (it was part of a survivalist kit, not to stab someone)
4. The character of the student (an Eagle Scout who had never been in trouble before and whose grades are apparently good enough to make him competitive at West Point)
5. How they found it (the student voluntarily showed it to them in good faith after being asked about it)


I'm sure there are others, but those are just a few of the criteria I can think of. ALL of the criteria suggest they should not punish the student at all.
 
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Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

1. What kind of weapon it was (a pocketknife, not a Glock)
2. Where it was found (locked up in the student's car, not on his person)
3. Why the student had it (it was part of a survivalist kit, not to stab someone)
4. The character of the student (an Eagle Scout who had never been in trouble before and whose grades are apparently good enough to make him competitive at West Point)
5. How they found it (the student voluntarily showed it to them in good faith after being asked about it)


I'm sure there are others, but those are just a few of the criteria I can think of. ALL of the criteria suggest they should not punish the student at all.

I understand that, but I'm just saying there's at least reasons for zero-tolerance policies, regardless if you personally support them.
 
Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

I understand that, but I'm just saying there's at least reasons for zero-tolerance policies, regardless if you personally support them.

Yeah. To keep the administration from actually having the responsibility of making rational decisions on a case by case basis.
 
Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Yeah. To keep the administration from actually having the responsibility of making rational decisions on a case by case basis.

And what would be the motivation in doing that?
 
Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

And what would be the motivation in doing that?

Taking responsibility for administration of the school off administrators. :shrug:

What's the motivation for anyone trying to shirk off their job duties?

Edit: I am sure law suit avoidance might have a little to do with it, too.
 
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Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

"A forever suspension for those utterly stupid school officials", is my immediate reaction..
Seriously , probably every one of them should resign - particularly those in love with "zero tolerance".
And interesting - the "weapon" was locked in his car..
As usual, there is more, maybe much more to this.
 
Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

I understand that, but I'm just saying there's at least reasons for zero-tolerance policies, regardless if you personally support them.

Yeah. To keep the administration from actually having the responsibility of making rational decisions on a case by case basis.

And what would be the motivation in doing that?


The purpose of having a zero-tolerance policy is to ensure that there can be no exceptions to the rule, at all. Whether you're an eagle scout or a gang member, the rule must apply.

In the school that I teach at we have a zero-tolerance policy for bring weapons on campus as well. The punishment is suspension, up to but not including expulsion. Days of suspension are to be determined by the Dean. Expulsions need to be reviewed by the school board.

In the case of this Eagle scout, the zero-tolerance rule must apply, which just means that some form of punishment needs to be given. If this rule was not applied to this eagle scout, then he is an exception to the rule, and weapons is now introduced onto campus, thus defeating the purpose of having a zero-tolerance policy against weapons on campus.

There can be no exception to the zero-tolerance policy, but the the level of punishment can be discretionary.
 
Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

When rules are so rigid that they force common sense out of the window, then there is a problem. Discretionary room is needed with such rules, lest the law eat all of us.
 
Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

The purpose of having a zero-tolerance policy is to ensure that there can be no exceptions to the rule, at all. Whether you're an eagle scout or a gang member, the rule must apply.

In the school that I teach at we have a zero-tolerance policy for bring weapons on campus as well. The punishment is suspension, up to but not including expulsion. Days of suspension are to be determined by the Dean. Expulsions need to be reviewed by the school board.

In the case of this Eagle scout, the zero-tolerance rule must apply, which just means that some form of punishment needs to be given. If this rule was not applied to this eagle scout, then he is an exception to the rule, and weapons is now introduced onto campus, thus defeating the purpose of having a zero-tolerance policy against weapons on campus.

There can be no exception to the zero-tolerance policy, but the the level of punishment can be discretionary.

And therein lies the rub. Zero tolerance policies are nothing more than a way for irresponsible administration to justify their irresponsibility in making decisions. :shrugs:
 
Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

And therein lies the rub. Zero tolerance policies are nothing more than a way for irresponsible administration to justify their irresponsibility in making decisions. :shrugs:

Another reason for having a zero-tolerance policy is to protect students from discrimination (by the administrators who are assigning the punishments).
 
Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Another reason for having a zero-tolerance policy is to protect students from discrimination (by the administrators who are assigning the punishments).

I don't buy into that hype for one second.
 
Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

I think that zero tolerance rules are made to be blanket so that administrators are insulated from charges of favoritism, racism, or bigotry and bias. This does provide insulation, but also wipes-out the ability to deal with unique situations as they arise. In that there is severe injustice.
 
Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

I don't buy into that hype for one second.

Well according to Obvious Child's link earlier....
Education experts say that zero-tolerance policies initially allowed authorities more leeway in punishing students, but were applied in a discriminatory fashion. Many studies indicate that African-Americans were several times more likely to be suspended or expelled than other students for the same offenses.


“The result of those studies is that more school districts have removed discretion in applying the disciplinary policies to avoid criticism of being biased,” said Ronnie Casella, an associate professor of education at Central Connecticut State University who has written about school violence. He added that there is no evidence that zero-tolerance policies make schools safer.

...

“There are still serious threats every day in schools,” Dr. Ewing said, adding that giving school officials discretion holds the potential for discrimination and requires the kind of threat assessments that only law enforcement is equipped to make.



Now, I'm not saying that a lot of school administrators are racists. In fact, I don't think any of the administrators that I know of personally are racist. But I don't doubt for one second that certain schools in various places around the country still facilitate racism, because racism is still alive. Racism may be dying, but it's still alive.
 
Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

I think that zero tolerance rules are made to be blanket so that administrators are insulated from charges of favoritism, racism, or bigotry and bias. This does provide insulation, but also wipes-out the ability to deal with unique situations as they arise. In that there is severe injustice.

Choose your poison?
 
Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Well according to Obvious Child's link earlier....
Education experts say that zero-tolerance policies initially allowed authorities more leeway in punishing students, but were applied in a discriminatory fashion. Many studies indicate that African-Americans were several times more likely to be suspended or expelled than other students for the same offenses.


“The result of those studies is that more school districts have removed discretion in applying the disciplinary policies to avoid criticism of being biased,” said Ronnie Casella, an associate professor of education at Central Connecticut State University who has written about school violence. He added that there is no evidence that zero-tolerance policies make schools safer.

...

“There are still serious threats every day in schools,” Dr. Ewing said, adding that giving school officials discretion holds the potential for discrimination and requires the kind of threat assessments that only law enforcement is equipped to make.



Now, I'm not saying that a lot of school administrators are racists. In fact, I don't think any of the administrators that I know of personally are racist. But I don't doubt for one second that certain schools in various places around the country still facilitate racism, because racism is still alive. Racism may be dying, but it's still alive.

That wasn't my point. What I was getting at was that the reasons given don't really jive with the reality of what zero tolerance policies do: give the teachers and administrators an excuse for taking zero responsibility by making the situation always, 100% the child's fault without exception by enshrining that fault as an institutional policy.

It's just stupid and further shows that the degradation of our education system lies just as much with the administration, if not more so, as it does with the kids and their parents.
 
Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

That wasn't my point. What I was getting at was that the reasons given don't really jive with the reality of what zero tolerance policies do: give the teachers and administrators an excuse for taking zero responsibility by making the situation always, 100% the child's fault without exception by enshrining that fault as an institutional policy.

Okay, but if the administrators did have to deal out punishment on a case by case basis, wouldn't we open up the possibility of discrimination? Either way we're screwed. Zero-tolerance we're screwed, no zero-tolerance we're still screwed. :shrug:
 
Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Okay, but if the administrators did have to deal out punishment on a case by case basis, wouldn't we open up the possibility of discrimination? Either way we're screwed. Zero-tolerance we're screwed, no zero-tolerance we're still screwed. :shrug:

No, we hold teachers and administrators to a standard and when one is found to be lacking in the character to make sound judgments, we terminate them. Screw their unions.
 
Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

That wasn't my point. What I was getting at was that the reasons given don't really jive with the reality of what zero tolerance policies do: give the teachers and administrators an excuse for taking zero responsibility by making the situation always, 100% the child's fault without exception by enshrining that fault as an institutional policy.

It's just stupid and further shows that the degradation of our education system lies just as much with the administration, if not more so, as it does with the kids and their parents.

Texas finally dumped 0 tolerance because some kid got busted for having something like a butter knife in her car. She is and a student involved in the school and community activies. But according to the old law she had to go to a special and have that on the record.
 
Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

No, we hold teachers and administrators to a standard and when one is found to be lacking in the character to make sound judgments, we terminate them. Screw their unions.

Who are judging the teachers and administrators??

And an FYI, teachers usually do not decide what level of punishment, especially if that punishment is severe. The teacher can recommend it, but the one who actually decides is either the Dean or the Principal. And in the extreme cases, it will be up to the superintendent.

Another FYI, teachers and administrators do not belong in the same union for obvious reasons.

The ones you are really mad at are administrators, not teachers.
 
Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

The student is an Eagle Scout, trained to lead youths in both leadership and practical skills, that include safety with cutting tools. Apparently he is also a soldier who is serious about a career in service to our nation, which implies a high standard of personal conduct. The knife was locked away by the student, obviously demonstrating responsibility and safety.

Apparently there is a question of perspective regarding what constitutes a weapon (Boy Scouts are not allowed to carry any), and the legality in which the police officer clearly stated no law was violated.
 
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Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Apparently there is a question of perspective regarding what constitutes a weapon (Boy Scouts are not allowed to carry any), and the legality in which the police officer clearly stated no law was violated.

Of course, school policy are not considered laws.
 
Re: Should this Eagle Scout have been suspended for keeping 2" pocketknife in his car

Of course, school policy are not considered laws.
I don't think that's the issue, I think a just outcome is the purpose. The policy is for safety, and since the Scout clearly demonstrated a concern for safety, he fulfilled the intent of the policy.
 
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