Does registration infringe on your right to...

liblady said:

saeems to me the gov't granted those very rights, did they not?

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Government doesnt grant rights -- rights pre-exist government.
If the government grants you something, its a privilege, not a right.

Goobieman said:

Government doesnt grant rights -- rights pre-exist government.
If the government grants you something, its a privilege, not a right.

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sorry, the gov't enumerated those rights.

liblady said:

sorry, the gov't enumerated those rights.

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Sorry - you obviously didn't notice that there is no language within those enumerations that GRANTS those rights.

liblady said:

sorry, the gov't enumerated those rights.

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To Clarify:
The constitution enumerates rights that may not be violated by the government.

Goobieman said:

I have, and I repeat, illustrated to you in a clear and concise manner how your statement is wrong.

Repeating your statement doesn't change that -- you need to actually counter the argument I put forth and show it to be unsound.

To this point, you have not done so.

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Given up, eh?

Goobieman said:

Government doesnt grant rights -- rights pre-exist government.
If the government grants you something, its a privilege, not a right.

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Okay fine rights pre exist government. W/O goverment what authority is going enforce those rights?

winston53660 said:

Okay fine rights pre exist government. W/O goverment what authority is going enforce those rights?

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GLOCK "Safe Action Pistols"

winston53660 said:

Okay fine rights pre exist government. W/O goverment what authority is going enforce those rights?

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You.

Thats the way it used to work -- and then, to secure these rights, governments were instituted among men.

So, we gave the government the power to (some of) the job that we, ourselves, used to do.

That in no way means that we get our rights from the government or depend on it for same.

liblady said:

sorry, the gov't enumerated those rights.

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Aww, you ignored everything I wrote.

The Government did not enumerate those rights, We the People, the creators of the government, enumerated those rights. The People reserved the rights, not the government. The government does not have the power to grant rights, it cannot do so. It can issue privilege, but not rights. The rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights and those not listed (as stated in the 10th) are reserved by the People, not the government.

Ikari said:

Aww, you ignored everything I wrote.

The Government did not enumerate those rights, We the People, the creators of the government, enumerated those rights. The People reserved the rights, not the government. The government does not have the power to grant rights, it cannot do so. It can issue privilege, but not rights. The rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights and those not listed (as stated in the 10th) are reserved by the People, not the government.

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wait....the gov't (people) didn't create the bill of rights? sure they did.

liblady said:

wait....the gov't (people) didn't create the bill of rights? sure they did.

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No, the People created the bill of rights. The Constitution established the government, the current government could not exist before the Constitution was ratified. Hence, it could not have created the Bill of Rights as the Bill of Rights, along with the Constitution, were created before that government existed.

liblady said:

argument being that the act of registration violates your right to privacy? because registering a gun certainly doesn't violate your right to bear arms.

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It does, because it puts a precondition on owning a fire arm.

other said:

To Clarify:
The constitution enumerates rights that may not be violated by the government.

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It enumerates some rights......not being mentioned does not mean the right does not exist.

winston53660 said:

Okay fine rights pre exist government. W/O goverment what authority is going enforce those rights?

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Rights are not enforced, they are preserved.

American said:

It enumerates some rights......not being mentioned does not mean the right does not exist.

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As specifically stated by the 10th amendment.

I find it sad and dangerous that some believe everything is granted through the power of the government. But governments do not have innate power. Everything they wield is because the People have allowed it. Government's do not create themselves, they are created by the People. Government are restricted, the People are not. Recognizing the rights of the individual and allowing people to exercise their rights at their discretion is a limit on government. Rights are to limit the government, not the other way around.

American said:

It enumerates some rights......not being mentioned does not mean the right does not exist.

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I never said that exclusion from the bill of rights negated any pre-existing rights not listed.

And the 10th covers that as a failsafe.

liblady said:

wait....the gov't (people) didn't create the bill of rights? sure they did.

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Wait... you didn't notice that there is no language within those enumerations that GRANTS those rights? Sure there isn't.

other said:

I never said that exclusion from the bill of rights negated any pre-existing rights not listed.

And the 10th covers that as a failsafe.

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Don't feel criticized, I was clarifying for those who like to bend words.

Ikari said:

No, the People created the bill of rights. The Constitution established the government, the current government could not exist before the Constitution was ratified. Hence, it could not have created the Bill of Rights as the Bill of Rights, along with the Constitution, were created before that government existed.

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the people are the govt'.

Goobieman said:

Wait... you didn't notice that there is no language within those enumerations that GRANTS those rights? Sure there isn't.

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you're right again. i have a hard time understanding why they needed to be enumerated, if they already existed, though.

liblady said:

you're right again. i have a hard time understanding why they needed to be enumerated, if they already existed, though.

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This is -clearly- true.
Did you not take a US Government or Civics class?
Did you pass?

The Bill of Rights protects, not grants, the rights mentioned within.

liblady said:

you're right again. i have a hard time understanding why they needed to be enumerated, if they already existed, though.

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Originally, the constitution had no bill of rights-- many delegates refused to ratify it, as they felt it did not do enough to ensure their rights would be protected. The first ten amendments were added to further ensure that the government would not trample peoples' rights, and so it was ratified. Some, however, such as Patrick Henry, still believed it did not go far enough, but the bill of rights satisfied enough to get it adopted.

(in a nutshell)

liblady said:

the people are the govt'.

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No. The People are the People. The government is an institution created by the People to see to affairs of State. The government can be made by the People, it can be made for the People, it can be made of the People; but the government is not the People.

other said:

Originally, the constitution had no bill of rights-- many delegates refused to ratify it, as they felt it did not do enough to ensure their rights would be protected. The first ten amendments were added to further ensure that the government would not trample peoples' rights, and so it was ratified. Some, however, such as Patrick Henry, still believed it did not go far enough, but the bill of rights satisfied enough to get it adopted.

(in a nutshell)

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thank you for not being snide. of course i understand the history, but in my opinion, the rights we enjoy are really social constructs. the men who created the bill of rights merely listed the rights they believed we should have, not rights bestowed us from on high.

liblady said:

you're right again. i have a hard time understanding why they needed to be enumerated, if they already existed, though.

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This was a HUGE debate at the time. Some people felt that there had to be some rights listed to ensure that the government didn't infringe upon them. Rights so sacred and important that under no circumstance could we allow for treason and tyranny against them. Others felt that by listing some of the rights, the government would assume that those were the only one's which existed and would work against the others. They thought the rights were self-evident and didn't need to be listed. Since the Constitution is a system of positive power (granting) to the government, if the Constitution didn't grant a power the government didn't have it. Those against the Bill of Rights thought this was in and of itself good enough to prevent the government from acting against the rights and liberties of the individual.

So people debated hotly the topic. Why did they have to be enumerated? Well I think Badnarik puts it the best. You have to consider the government as an infant. The Constitution lays out things that the government may do, it grants it the power necessary to do the job and gives a list of things it's supposed to do and what it's empowered to do. But it's like a child, you tell a kid they have to do something; but that doesn't mean that they understand that they are forbidden from things not granted. As such you have to tell them that they can't do other things as well. The Bill of Rights was included as the "no" list. These are the things government absolutely cannot touch. And as further insurance, the 10th amendment makes clear that anything not granted to the government in the Constitution is reserved by the People and the States.