View Poll Results: Is the argument presented in the OP fair?

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  • Yes, it is entirely fair

    22 40.00%
  • No, it is an unfair attack on Obama

    32 58.18%
  • I don't know

    1 1.82%
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Thread: Is This a Fair Complaint

  1. #31
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    Re: Is This a Fair Complaint

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I'd also think its fair to state that when you have Joint Cheifs of Staff who are likely communicating with said President and with said general on a regular basis are communicating. This has probably been going on for 9 months now.

    Meanwhile I'm pretty sure the IOC was a one day affair where it would benefit diplomatically for the President himself to show up rather than send a cabinet member.

    You didn't state "face to face" conversation, you said his time. Unless you're contesting that the reports, statements, or views of said General or of the President never passed between them through intermediaries like the Joint Cheifs of Staff (who are hardly impotent peons), you're just wrong about the "president's time".

    One does not need to meet face to face with a person to be able to give them direction, to hear reports from them, etc.
    This is fair, from my understanding, General McCrystal(sp?) has recieved 25 minutes of total time from the president prior to the second meeting.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  2. #32
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    Re: Is This a Fair Complaint

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Yes, and we definitely know that nit picking on silly and outright stupid things for criticism is the perview of only the "wacko" right and only happens to Obama.

    How Nuclear is pronounced.

    Choking on a pretzel.

    Finishing reading to the kids.

    Working from the Ranch instead.

    Planned / Knowingly purposefully allowed 9/11.

    Planning to declare himself dictator with FEMA camps (thanks billo).

    Indeed, I'm sure if we go back to Clinton, and to GHWB, and to Reagan we would in no way find people:

    1. Complaining about something stupid like how one spells nuclear or what beer they're drinking

    2. Creating some kind of idiotic conspiracy theory about them

    3. Get upset with them due to some kind of public event, "vacation" location, change in venue, or minor political issue that became a focus for a short time.

    Those things never could've happened for anyone but Obama. Dear Obama has so, soooooooo much more to worry about than any President. I mean, its just blatantly obvious.

    When you consider than he's working toward becoming the worst president in history, he does have more to worry about than any other president.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  3. #33
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    Re: Is This a Fair Complaint

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    This is fair, from my understanding, General McCrystal(sp?) has recieved 25 minutes of total time from the president prior to the second meeting.
    Oh, and I should mention that "time with the president" is all considerations, such as advisory, hearing out needs, etc. This includes the cabinet. Again, this is my understanding.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  4. #34
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    Re: Is This a Fair Complaint

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    This is fair, from my understanding, General McCrystal(sp?) has recieved 25 minutes of total time from the president prior to the second meeting.
    Face to Face time, or time in general that McCrystal's reports, concerns, comments, etc were being given to Obama and vise versa?

    If Obama has spent 25 total minutes in the 9 months in anything revolving around the General, that'd be the issue.

    if Obama only met with McCrystal once for 25 minutes, but daily was having briefings from his Joint Chiefs of Staff concerning reports and comments sent back by McCrystal and was also passing forward his thoughts through them to the general, then I don't have as big of a deal. Would I prefer my President to be meeting with the General often? Sure. But more importantly I want them to be abreast of the situation. If they feel they can be that way through the Joint Chiefs briefings and that individual talks with the General isn't as helpful (perhaps he doesn't know the nuiances of the military and the General is not as good at getting those across, who knows), then so be it.

    The problem is people seem to be trying to imply, rather UNFAIRLY imho, that since he only met with the General once for 25 minutes that somehow that's the extent of his interaction in any form or shape with what's going on in Afghanistan and command issues there.

  5. #35
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    Re: Is This a Fair Complaint

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Face to Face time, or time in general that McCrystal's reports, concerns, comments, etc were being given to Obama and vise versa?

    If Obama has spent 25 total minutes in the 9 months in anything revolving around the General, that'd be the issue.

    if Obama only met with McCrystal once for 25 minutes, but daily was having briefings from his Joint Chiefs of Staff concerning reports and comments sent back by McCrystal and was also passing forward his thoughts through them to the general, then I don't have as big of a deal. Would I prefer my President to be meeting with the General often? Sure. But more importantly I want them to be abreast of the situation. If they feel they can be that way through the Joint Chiefs briefings and that individual talks with the General isn't as helpful (perhaps he doesn't know the nuiances of the military and the General is not as good at getting those across, who knows), then so be it.

    The problem is people seem to be trying to imply, rather UNFAIRLY imho, that since he only met with the General once for 25 minutes that somehow that's the extent of his interaction in any form or shape with what's going on in Afghanistan and command issues there.
    I reposted my qualifier a second ago, sorry bout the confusion.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  6. #36
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    Re: Is This a Fair Complaint

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    When you consider than he's working toward becoming the worst president in history, he does have more to worry about than any other president.
    Yay for wonderful hyperbole!

    Ugg.

    Serious, determining whether someone is becoming "the worst" president in history....DURING THEIR FREAKING ADMINISTRATION, let alone even a decade later....is incredibly foolhearty. So often things put forth into action by a President don't have their full ramifications show up until sometime in the future. Be it that it takes that long to go into effect, or if the slow but lengthy longevity of a positive looks far better than the initial small bonus it showed at first, or something that started off huge bombs off, etc. Its not something that can be honestly really judged right off. If you want to say "bad", sure go ahead. If you want to say he's the worst you've seen personally, sure. If you want to say you think he will be one of, eh, okay. But to unequiviocally state he's becoming THE WORST is just gross hyperbole based on nothing but hyper partisan biased views.

    And even if we are....

    This is a classic example of hyper partisanship attempting to just go after the guy in office. Because the only standard I can see you using to justify calling him the worst is the expansion of government, expansion of the welfare state, expansion of the federal debt, poor supreme court choice, and perhaps fear of removal of civil liberties. Going from the extreme right sided mindset of this, even Obama can't be listed as "the worst ever" under that criteria because he still pales in comparison to FDR at the majority of those things, on top of which FDR has history backing him as we can actually look at see the longevity his things have had on society and their effects which we won't be able to do for decades with Obama.

    Just no.

  7. #37
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    Re: Is This a Fair Complaint

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Face to Face time, or time in general that McCrystal's reports, concerns, comments, etc were being given to Obama and vise versa?

    If Obama has spent 25 total minutes in the 9 months in anything revolving around the General, that'd be the issue.

    if Obama only met with McCrystal once for 25 minutes, but daily was having briefings from his Joint Chiefs of Staff concerning reports and comments sent back by McCrystal and was also passing forward his thoughts through them to the general, then I don't have as big of a deal. Would I prefer my President to be meeting with the General often? Sure. But more importantly I want them to be abreast of the situation. If they feel they can be that way through the Joint Chiefs briefings and that individual talks with the General isn't as helpful (perhaps he doesn't know the nuiances of the military and the General is not as good at getting those across, who knows), then so be it.

    The problem is people seem to be trying to imply, rather UNFAIRLY imho, that since he only met with the General once for 25 minutes that somehow that's the extent of his interaction in any form or shape with what's going on in Afghanistan and command issues there.

    It's possible that someone in the chain of command felt like PBO wasn't giving the war it's due attention andI think that's the reason that McChrystal's troop request was leaked. It is quite obvious that the Afghaistan command isn't on the same page as the president. Just my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  8. #38
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    Re: Is This a Fair Complaint

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Serious, determining whether someone is becoming "the worst" president in history....DURING THEIR FREAKING ADMINISTRATION, let alone even a decade later....is incredibly foolhearty.
    Not only that, it shows a serious lack of understanding of U.S. history. We've had far, far worse.

  9. #39
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    Re: Is This a Fair Complaint

    Why is Afghanistan war being the only example being used? There are far more things on Obama's plate than just that war. Using just the war and not showing all the other things on Obama's plate is an inaccurate representation of the things Obama is suppose to be doing. I already gave such a list once in this thread.
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  10. #40
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    Re: Is This a Fair Complaint

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Its a fair complaint, that can be made in unfair ways.

    Ikari does a good job of showing it as a fair one. Focusing singularly on the Olympics is unfair, as would be trying to equate the olympics to being the exact same thing as say, appearing on the tonight show. HOWEVER, it IS fair to roll it all up into an over arching argument that in general Obama's ACTIONS seems more concerned with his public image and essentially campaigning rather than actually dealing with many of the serious issues in this country. It would even be fair to simply assert that even if its not REALLY messing with his priorities, the perception it gives off is likely bad (as it was hardly hardcore righties that were complaining about his talk show appearances, etc).

    Does that mean its a correct and infallable argument?

    Absolutely not?

    Does it mean that it can't be taken to extremes, interjected with idiotic hyperbole, and be laced with hypocracy?

    Absolutely not as well.

    The argument itself is a fair one in a general sense, but how one presents it and the scope of which they push it would have the potential to edit such.

    Just like the notion, which I found idiotic, that Bush should be chastised and belittled constantly for his time in Crawford for the past 8 years was something NUMEROUS liberals here and elsewhere considered a legitimate and worth while reason to bash him was in and of itself a "fair" complaint. However, many of the arguments for said complaint was unfair due to peoples inability to use reason and logic, avoid gross hyperbole, and have some common sense.
    As I intended the question(did I phrase it poorly again), it is meant the Olympic bid in relation to Afghanistan. Is it fair to complain about going to support the bid because he has not made the troop commitment to Afghanistan. It has gotten to where the last soldiers who died, Obama is being blamed for the deaths since he went to take part in the Olympic bid.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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