View Poll Results: Do You Enjoy being fed Bull**** ?

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  • yes i love it

    12 52.17%
  • no

    11 47.83%
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Thread: Do you enjoy bull**** ?

  1. #171
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    Re: Do you enjoy bull**** ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    This is a gross misrepresentation of libertarian thought.
    How so? I tried to present those precepts honestly. Do most libertarians not believe those things?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    Besides, it's a set of principles, which means it's not an ad hoc, case-by-case decision-making process. It's a belief in a consistent set of philosophical rules and various issues are viewed through it, not decided upon de novo each time.
    If those dogmas are not the starting and ending point of your arguments, then you are not one of the people to whom I am referring.
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  2. #172
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    Re: Do you enjoy bull**** ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    How so? I tried to present those precepts honestly. Do most libertarians not believe those things?
    Libertarians can show evidence of these things. You don't have to agree with them, but the arguments are there and often used by Libertarians. Also, for virtually all Libertarians, none of what you stated is absolute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If those dogmas are not the starting and ending point of your arguments, then you are not one of the people to whom I am referring.
    For some, it is. For some, their parties talking points are all that they have. The problems that you accuse Libertarians of are by no means at all restricted to just Libertarians and a few "political adults"

  3. #173
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    Re: Do you enjoy bull**** ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    Not by any means absolute for the vast majority of Libertarians
    They are much more absolute than any comparable principle for liberals or conservatives. I tried to think of something analogous for liberals/conservatives...but the closest analogy I could come up with was "Government can help build a good society by helping the poor" for liberals, and "Government can help build a good society by helping families" for conservatives.

    Neither of those are as comprehensive or universal as the things I listed for libertarians, and on any given issue I think you'd find a lot of liberals/conservatives who thought those respective beliefs did not apply. I don't think the same is true of libertarians.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus
    The Democrats can do no wrong, f*ck that orgrish, te*bagging GOP


    The GOP can do no wrong. F*ck those hippie, Bolshevik Democrats
    That's more ordinary partisanship than ideological dogma. I was referring more to principles that would govern a person's policy opinions.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-03-09 at 04:48 PM.
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  4. #174
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    Re: Do you enjoy bull**** ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Well, let's make a list of dogmatic principles:

    LIBERTARIANS:
    - The government can't do anything right.
    No. If that were true, libertarians would favor NO government. (Sorry, anarchists, we're not discussing you here.)

    - The free market is always efficient.
    No.

    - It is fundamentally immoral to tax people to pay for government spending.
    Not for the legitimate purposes of government.

    - An originalist interpretation of the Constitution is the only legitimate one.
    Libertarian thought transcends any one constitution. But the original intent behind the Constitution is most consistent with libertarian principles.

    - The government has no business telling people what to do, as long as they aren't harming others.
    That, I'll buy.
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  5. #175
    Student Helte/2Skelter's Avatar
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    Re: Do you enjoy bull**** ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    Libertarians can show evidence of these things. You don't have to agree with them, but the arguments are there and often used by Libertarians. Also, for virtually all Libertarians, none of what you stated is absolute.



    For some, it is. For some, their parties talking points are all that they have. The problems that you accuse Libertarians of are by no means at all restricted to just Libertarians and a few "political adults"
    Careful, remember that true libertarianism was a left-wing anarchist movement that has now become libertarian socialism and these people we call 'libertarians' are merely right-wingers that abandon any concept of freedom for capitalism as a an authority. This is why I find right-wing 'libertarianism' to be a bit incoherent due to their lack of a critique of capitalism with respect to individual liberty. A large assumption is made early on in ideological development that compromises the integrity of 'libertarianism'.

  6. #176
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    Re: Do you enjoy bull**** ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    They are much more absolute than any comparable principle for liberals or conservatives. I tried to think of something analogous for liberals/conservatives...but the closest analogy I could come up with was "Government can help build a good society by helping the poor" for liberals, and "Government can help build a good society by helping families" for conservatives.
    I helped. Libs and Cons are often are so caught up in their partys that they can't see their own hands without some party leader telling them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Neither of those are as comprehensive or universal as the things I listed for libertarians, and on any given issue I think you'd find a lot of liberals/conservatives who thought those respective beliefs did not apply. I don't think the same is true of libertarians.
    BS. You haven't shown any evidence of this. Unless you can bring up something that proves Libertarians an exception to the general rule of thumb, "Large groups are diverse and generallizing about them as ignorant is idiotic and sophmoric," you lose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That's more ordinary partisanship than ideological dogma. I was referring more to principles that would govern a person's policy opinions.
    Dogma is dogma Kandahar. For many, their party IS their ideology

  7. #177
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    Re: Do you enjoy bull**** ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helte/2Skelter View Post
    Careful, remember that true libertarianism was a left-wing anarchist movement that has now become libertarian socialism and these people we call 'libertarians' are merely right-wingers that abandon any concept of freedom for capitalism as a an authority. This is why I find right-wing 'libertarianism' to be a bit incoherent due to their lack of a critique of capitalism with respect to individual liberty. A large assumption is made early on in ideological development that compromises the integrity of 'libertarianism'.
    We see largely free market capitalism as the best tool for freedom economically. That isn't the issue here though

  8. #178
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    Re: Do you enjoy bull**** ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    We see largely free market capitalism as the best tool for freedom economically. That isn't the issue here though
    I think you may find through an analytical approach to capitalism that this is not really true. This may be better argued in another thread though, I suppose. I will make one later, but I am quite busy nowadays, so my commentary may be limited. The thread will be named something along the lines of 'critiques of captialism'. I see capitalism as a bandage I am willing to accept until a viable alternative is found, but its fundamental flaws should not go without notice.

  9. #179
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    Re: Do you enjoy bull**** ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    We see largely free market capitalism as the best tool for freedom economically. That isn't the issue here though
    In saying "we" think rather than "I" think, you tend to undermine any argument you might offer refuting the notion that you are dogmatic.

    You are admitting you are indulging in a process groupthink rather than anything self-generated. .
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  10. #180
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    Re: Do you enjoy bull**** ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    In saying "we" think rather than "I" think, you tend to undermine any argument you might offer refuting the notion that you are dogmatic.

    You are admitting you are indulging in a process groupthink rather than anything self-generated. .
    I use the "we" as a general term. I never said that Libertarians think a like. I'm saying that most Libertarains feel this way for the same exact reason that most Liberals and Conservatives feel a certain way. I was stating that most people back up their arguments when arguing. In other wors I was simply saying that there is nothing exceptional about Libertarians.

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