View Poll Results: Should illegal aliens get amnesty

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  • Yes, make them citizens with no extra requirements

    5 14.71%
  • Yes, but make them pay a form of reparations to earn citizenship

    4 11.76%
  • No, they are criminals

    22 64.71%
  • other/don't know

    3 8.82%
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Thread: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

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    Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Should illegal aliens be offered Amnesty, semi-amnesty(paying fines or working for forgiveness), or not allowed amnesty.

    This question is a redirect from here, where we have gotten way off topic and onto this: http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...an-issues.html
    poll is up.
    Last edited by Redress; 09-30-09 at 11:44 PM.

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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    other/don't know
    Yes, but make them start the naturalization process from the beginning (rather than just making them citizens, with or without punishment).
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Make them pay reparations? Aside from the fact that many Latin American illegal immigrants are Amerindian mestizos whose poor economic conditions have been inherited from a violent European invasion and colonization of America and the centuries of racial segregation and discrimination that were to follow, recent history has been marked by governmental establishment of trade liberalization and the expansion of U.S.-based agricultural companies into Mexico that has uprooted and displaced farmers and associated laborers into urban areas, and then into the U.S. itself due to the vastly inequitable wage differentials between the U.S. and Mexico.

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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    You're trapped in a confused cycle of circular reasoning that doesn't lead you to examine the actual ethical basis behind immigration restrictions to begin with, instead choosing to point to the law without actual logical analysis of it. That would be a poor choice if one wanted to claim that civil rights era blacks' violation of Jim Crow laws was evidence of their criminality and justification for racially discriminatory legal policy against them, and it's a poor choice in this case also.
    Bull****!

    There is an appearance of circular logic, but in fact it is not if you examine it closely. I am saying that to choose to enter the country illegally, you are showing a willingness to ignore the laws of this country for personal gain. This alone makes you unfit to be allowed to become a citizen. I am all for legal immigration, and have no problem with it being expanded significantly. What I do not like is people who choose to violate laws for personal comfort.

    To put it another way, I think that some one who has broken laws in this country should be ineligible for citizenship/extended work visas. This includes murder, rape, robbery, fraud, and entering the country illegally. You are latching onto the one, and not seeing the totality.

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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Bull****!

    There is an appearance of circular logic, but in fact it is not if you examine it closely. I am saying that to choose to enter the country illegally, you are showing a willingness to ignore the laws of this country for personal gain. This alone makes you unfit to be allowed to become a citizen. I am all for legal immigration, and have no problem with it being expanded significantly. What I do not like is people who choose to violate laws for personal comfort.

    To put it another way, I think that some one who has broken laws in this country should be ineligible for citizenship/extended work visas. This includes murder, rape, robbery, fraud, and entering the country illegally. You are latching onto the one, and not seeing the totality.
    His analogy makes sense though. The black people who refused to give up their seats on buses to white people were breaking the law too. Is that not showing a willingness to ignore the laws of the country for personal gain?

    The only distinction that I can see is that you think segregation laws were wrong, but do not feel that way about illegal immigration laws. But this still does not explain why.
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    There is an appearance of circular logic, but in fact it is not if you examine it closely. I am saying that to choose to enter the country illegally, you are showing a willingness to ignore the laws of this country for personal gain. This alone makes you unfit to be allowed to become a citizen. I am all for legal immigration, and have no problem with it being expanded significantly. What I do not like is people who choose to violate laws for personal comfort.
    And as noted, that's an extremely flimsy premise. There's no ethical basis behind immigration restrictions to begin with, so violation of them is hardly consequently unethical, just as violation of Jim Crow laws was hardly consequently unethical, nor was it indicative of a willingness to violate ethically legitimate laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    To put it another way, I think that some one who has broken laws in this country should be ineligible for citizenship/extended work visas. This includes murder, rape, robbery, fraud, and entering the country illegally. You are latching onto the one, and not seeing the totality.
    Then you'd have nothing that would warrant particularly widespread policy guidelines, considering that allegations of widespread immigrant criminality are largely mythical in nature.

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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    His analogy makes sense though. The black people who refused to give up their seats on buses to white people were breaking the law too. Is that not showing a willingness to ignore the laws of the country for personal gain?

    The only distinction that I can see is that you think segregation laws were wrong, but do not feel that way about illegal immigration laws. But this still does not explain why.
    Yes, but they where already citizens, so that could not be denied them. They where criminals, and prosecuting them under the laws was appropriate, as was changing those laws.

    Saying that people used civil disobedience so we should not have passed civil rights legislation...well, if that is your contention, that is a highly inaccurate analogy.

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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Building a 50 yard section of wall along the border seems an appropriate form of reparations to me.

    Those that are here are here, not a hell of a lot we can do with them since there is no way we will ever dedicate the resources necessary to evict them.

    Let them earn their right to citizenship, and in the meantime take away the incentive for more illegals coming over. It is too easy to attain a social sec # illegitimately and simply write that in on an I-9 and fulfill the requirements to snow an employer into hiring illegals.

    Deal with the fake identity issue, and once that is done we can take steps to ensure that they are not being hired holding employers accountable if they do decide to hire.

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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    And as noted, that's an extremely flimsy premise. There's no ethical basis behind immigration restrictions to begin with, so violation of them is hardly consequently unethical, just as violation of Jim Crow laws was hardly consequently unethical, nor was it indicative of a willingness to violate ethically legitimate laws.
    Yes there is an ethical basis for such restrictions. We as a country are perfectly allowed to choose whether to allow immigration and how much to allow, whatever is in our best interest. It is unethical of people to not respect the laws of the land they want to live in.



    Then you'd have nothing that would warrant particularly widespread policy guidelines, considering that allegations of widespread immigrant criminality are largely mythical in nature.
    Illegal immigrants are criminals by definition. There is believed to be > 10 million in this country. Sounds widespread to me.

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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Yes, but they where already citizens, so that could not be denied them. They where criminals, and prosecuting them under the laws was appropriate, as was changing those laws.

    Saying that people used civil disobedience so we should not have passed civil rights legislation...well, if that is your contention, that is a highly inaccurate analogy.
    OK, then let's use a hypothetical example instead of an historical example: Suppose that everyone in Congress gets drunk one night and passes a law making it a crime for any non-citizen to wear T-shirts with silly phrases on them. When there are protests, some people say that the law should not be changed because it rewards lawbreakers.

    Do you see any problem with this argument? It offers no rational explanation for why such a thing should be a crime in the first place.
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