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Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

Should illegal aliens get amnesty

  • Yes, make them citizens with no extra requirements

    Votes: 3 10.7%

  • Yes, but make them pay a form of reparations to earn citizenship

    Votes: 4 14.3%

  • No, they are criminals

    Votes: 18 64.3%

  • other/don't know

    Votes: 3 10.7%
  • Total voters
    28
talloulou said:
Many of these illegals were brought here as kids.They don't know Mexico. They no longer have ties to Mexico. They were brought here illegally by their parents at a young age. They had no say in it.
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Yeah, a couple that are friends with my aunt was traveling back from Mexico with the husband's brother, all of them English-speaking mestizos raised in the U.S. When the brother gave the border agents his information, it wasn't in the system or whatever, so they were detained. It turned out that he was born in Mexico and brought to the U.S. when he was around two years old or so (with his parents never telling him), and all of his siblings had been born in the U.S. So my aunt's friends were arrested for smuggling.

Redress said:
Talking to you is like talking to a wall. it's annoying and unrewarding since you are not going to be heard. Why in the world would I volunteer to spend additional time doing something I find annoying?
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If you can win a True Debate with me on the topic of illegal immigration, then I won't respond to your posts in the immigration forum in the future. The same goes for any other takers. It's just that I think your position is baseless and that those who adopt it have no chance of winning. :shrug:
 
Redress said:
To me there is a definite comparison. They are all illegal acts.
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Yes, but sharing one similarity doesn't make them the same, that line of reasoning (that a = b so b = a is valid when it comparing crimes) can be debunked through a proof by absurdity, an example used by another person on another forum on a debate on file-sharing, but still, IMO, a legit example for my post.

If A = B then B = A.

so

If murder = crime then crime = murder

therefore

if I jaywalk I am a murderer.

See the conundrum?
 
talloulou said:
Many of these illegals were brought here as kids.They don't know Mexico. They no longer have ties to Mexico. They were brought here illegally by their parents at a young age. They had no say in it.
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According to the Constitution they are citizens because they were born here (as far as I know the 14th Amendment doesnt distinguish between legal or illegal, if someone finds otherwise let me know) but if they are under 18 they have to go back with their parents. The child in question just doesnt have to go through the red tape that is associated with immigration with the exception of knowing how to speak English and pass the citizenship test.
 
Here's a perfectly good logical reason to deny illegals amnesty.

1: They are criminals that take over jobs of Americans. I don't buy into the spew of them doing jobs that Americans won't do. I know plenty of people personally that do the exact same type of work. Me included.

2: They cost tax payers money via school and medical care, jail/prison time for the ones that commit other crimes, and other services.

3: It is a slap in the face of everyone that did come here legally by earning the right to do so.

If you want to talk ethics then how is it ethical to give preferential treatment to people that were not born here over those that were?

How is it ethical to give amnesty to illegals when there are lots of people that came here legally and worked to get it?

How is it ethical to allow people to work under the table and not pay taxes and not go after them while going after American citizens that do not and taking everything that they own..in essence making them live on the street?

How is it ethical to make American citizens pay for schooling and hospital bills of people that should be another governments problem?

How is it ethical to keep allowing illegals to come here without doing anything of substance to stop it..and thereby allowing a possible rapist or murder into our streets that rapes or kills an American citizen. That murder or rape would not have happened had that illegal stayed in his/her country.

And this was just off the top of my head. I'm quite sure that I could come up with other "ethical" questions.
 
Travelsonic said:
Yes, but sharing one similarity doesn't make them the same, that line of reasoning (that a = b so b = a is valid when it comparing crimes) can be debunked through a proof by absurdity, an example used by another person on another forum on a debate on file-sharing, but still, IMO, a legit example for my post.

If A = B then B = A.

so

If murder = crime then crime = murder

therefore

if I jaywalk I am a murderer.

See the conundrum?
Click to expand...

I never claimed they where the exact same thing. I stated clearly that they had a point of comparison.
 
chevydriver1123 said:
According to the Constitution they are citizens because they were born here (as far as I know the 14th Amendment doesnt distinguish between legal or illegal, if someone finds otherwise let me know) but if they are under 18 they have to go back with their parents. The child in question just doesnt have to go through the red tape that is associated with immigration with the exception of knowing how to speak English and pass the citizenship test.
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Anyone that is born of illegal parents in the US still becomes a US citizen. These babies are often called "Anchor Babies" as there is less of a chance of the parents being deported if they have a kid here. Plus when the child gets older they can fight to get their parents legalized.

If two illegals have a baby in the US and they are deported the child will be kept in the US and put into the foster care system. Though the parents can appeal to get their child if they wish. Also the child can choose to go with their parents if they are of a certain age. Not sure what that age is though.
 
I'm opposed to amnesty for the sake of amnesty. All that does is encourage more folks to come here illegally. However, if a pathway to citizenship was the compromise it took to pass some real anti-illegal immigration measures, then it would be worth it. Here's what I'd expect such a compromise to look like

1. Increased border patrols, possibly a fence if its determined to be effective and cost efficient.

2. Elimination of all government assistance for illegal immigration. No welfare, no food stamps, no public education. Emergency life saving medical care would be the one exception, and only because trying to verify citizenship in a life saving situation would create more problems than it would solve.

3. Local law enforcement empowered to arrest and detain illegal aliens they come into contact with. No more illegals with three DUIs still out on the road. If an illegal alien is arrested on a minor charge, he should be handed over to the proper authorities for immediate deportation. For major charges, they should have a trial, serve their time, and then be deported.

4. Harsh penalties on those who hire illegal immigrants. If we remove the incentive to hire illegals, we remove the incentive to come here.

On the amnesty side, here's what I'd be willing allow a pathway to citizenship under the following conditions.

1. Clean criminal record.

2. Legally employed.

3. Able to speak English.

4. Back of the line.

5. Pay a reasonable fine.

I'm not a fan of the requirement they return to their country of origin, as that's just not realistic. If you make the pathway to citizenship too burdensome, then no one will utilize it and then there's no point in offering it.
 
chevydriver1123 said:
According to the Constitution they are citizens because they were born here (as far as I know the 14th Amendment doesnt distinguish between legal or illegal, if someone finds otherwise let me know) but if they are under 18 they have to go back with their parents. The child in question just doesnt have to go through the red tape that is associated with immigration with the exception of knowing how to speak English and pass the citizenship test.
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This doesn't mean squat for someone like my sister in law. She was brought here as a teen. Her sister is legal, she is not. Her sister has a valid driver's license and social security card and she can not get one. Her sister has a decent job and she is forced to take jobs under the table on the cheap. Her family is here. Her mother, sister, nephews, aunt, etc. There is nothing in Mexico to send her back to. She has been here since she was 15! You would send her back?

Folks like her need amnesty. They're completely f-ck'd due to their parents choices.

She has an immigration lawyer who has been working with her on her case for over a year now. It's possible she may STILL be denied citizenship despite having been here since 15, despite being married to my brother, despite having a legal sister, legal nephews, a legal aunt, etc.

It's a tad ridiculous. And it's fallacious to insist folks like her mother should have just followed the law and migrated legally. Unless you are a highly skilled educated person who already has a job lined up in the states they really make it all but impossible for you to legally migrate here from Mexico and further south. Best to just come here illegally and have as many of your offspring born here as possible.

Look how hard they're making it for her! She has a husband for cripes sake who has shown he can support her. She is not on welfare and won't be. She works under the table only cause she can't currently do anything else. She'd rather not. She drives illegally 'cause she can't get a license. She is trying to sort it all out, trying to make it right, trying to correct a wrong her parents created, and they are giving her grief. It's b.s. really.
 
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talloulou said:
This doesn't mean squat for someone like my sister in law. She was brought here as a teen. Her sister is legal, she is not. Her sister has a valid driver's license and social security card and she can not get one. Her sister has a decent job and she is forced to take jobs under the table on the cheap. Her family is here. Her mother, sister, nephews, aunt, etc. There is nothing in Mexico to send her back to. She has been here since she was 15! You would send her back?

Folks like her need amnesty. They're completely f-ck'd due to their parents choices.

She has an immigration lawyer who has been working with her on her case for over a year now. It's possible she may STILL be denied citizenship despite having been here since 15, despite being married to my brother, despite having a legal sister, legal nephews, a legal aunt, etc.

It's a tad ridiculous. And it's fallacious to insist folks like her mother should have just followed the law and migrated legally. Unless you are a highly skilled educated person who already has a job lined up in the states they really make it all but impossible for you to legally migrate here from Mexico and further south. Best to just come here illegally and have as many of your offspring born here as possible.

Look how hard they're making it for her! She has a husband for cripes sake who has shown he can support her. She is not on welfare and won't be. She works under the table only cause she can't currently do anything else. She'd rather not. She drives illegally 'cause she can't get a license. She is trying to sort it all out, trying to make it right, trying to correct a wrong her parents created, and they are giving her grief. It's b.s. really.
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Your sister-in-law is in a crappy situation, but its not fallacious to say her mother should've followed the law. Her mother should've followed the law. We can debate if we should increase our immigration quotas, but the fact is we don't have a high demand for unskilled labor in this country. So yes, if you're an unskilled laborer, its going to be very difficult to immigrate here legally because its not in our economic interest to allow you to enter. I don't have a problem with that.

I wouldn't have a problem with someone like your sister-in-law getting amnesty. Assuming she has a clean record, she'd meet all the requirements I'd place on amnesty. I'm not really concerned with getting rid of the illegal immigrants we already have, with some exceptions. Most of them are hard working, law abiding, and contributing members of society. I think we as a nation and they individually would benefit in bringing them out from the shadows of being here illegally. But amnesty without reform to prevent future illegal immigration only encourages more illegals to come here. I'd also argue that due to the de facto levels of immigration we have from Latin America when you factor in illegal immigrants, that's why its so hard to get in here legally. We know we're going to get tons of illegals, who are mostly unskilled labor, each year. We don't need to add more unskilled immigrants through legal immigration on top of that. If we severely reduced illegal immigration, I think we could afford to loosen our legal immigration quotas.
 
Mostly, if I found out that Congress was getting drunk before making laws, I would be thrilled, because suddenly, the world would make sense.
 
talloulou said:
This doesn't mean squat for someone like my sister in law. She was brought here as a teen. Her sister is legal, she is not. Her sister has a valid driver's license and social security card and she can not get one. Her sister has a decent job and she is forced to take jobs under the table on the cheap. Her family is here. Her mother, sister, nephews, aunt, etc. There is nothing in Mexico to send her back to. She has been here since she was 15! You would send her back?

Folks like her need amnesty. They're completely f-ck'd due to their parents choices.

She has an immigration lawyer who has been working with her on her case for over a year now. It's possible she may STILL be denied citizenship despite having been here since 15, despite being married to my brother, despite having a legal sister, legal nephews, a legal aunt, etc.

It's a tad ridiculous. And it's fallacious to insist folks like her mother should have just followed the law and migrated legally. Unless you are a highly skilled educated person who already has a job lined up in the states they really make it all but impossible for you to legally migrate here from Mexico and further south. Best to just come here illegally and have as many of your offspring born here as possible.

Look how hard they're making it for her! She has a husband for cripes sake who has shown he can support her. She is not on welfare and won't be. She works under the table only cause she can't currently do anything else. She'd rather not. She drives illegally 'cause she can't get a license. She is trying to sort it all out, trying to make it right, trying to correct a wrong her parents created, and they are giving her grief. It's b.s. really.
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Time to be cold here. Don't like it but it is a must.

It doesn't matter that her mother dragged her here. I am sorry for her situation as it's not really her fault. But the law is the law and immigration law is not put up for no reason. Her folks can teach her what she needs to know to live in the country her and her folks are from. By her working under the table for cheaper than what businesses are allowed to pay citizens she is taking jobs away from citizens who need a job to stay off the streets. We have our own problems to deal with without adding the problems of another countries people to it.

On the softer side I would let her stay for two reasons and two reasons only.

1: She is married to an American citizen.
2: She has no criminal record. (assuming here that she doesn't..if she does then deport her)
 
talloulou said:
Well for starters we appear to be incapable of enforcing them.
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No we are not.If laws are not being enforced it is because those in office refuse to have them enforced. Look at Oklahoma HB 1804 aka the Tax Payer Protection act, we no longer have an illegal immigration as bad as we used. Most illegals fled Oklahoma.
 
Psychoclown said:
I'm opposed to amnesty for the sake of amnesty. All that does is encourage more folks to come here illegally. However, if a pathway to citizenship was the compromise it took to pass some real anti-illegal immigration measures, then it would be worth it. Here's what I'd expect such a compromise to look like

1. Increased border patrols, possibly a fence if its determined to be effective and cost efficient.

2. Elimination of all government assistance for illegal immigration. No welfare, no food stamps, no public education. Emergency life saving medical care would be the one exception, and only because trying to verify citizenship in a life saving situation would create more problems than it would solve.

3. Local law enforcement empowered to arrest and detain illegal aliens they come into contact with. No more illegals with three DUIs still out on the road. If an illegal alien is arrested on a minor charge, he should be handed over to the proper authorities for immediate deportation. For major charges, they should have a trial, serve their time, and then be deported.

4. Harsh penalties on those who hire illegal immigrants. If we remove the incentive to hire illegals, we remove the incentive to come here.

On the amnesty side, here's what I'd be willing allow a pathway to citizenship under the following conditions.

1. Clean criminal record.

2. Legally employed.

3. Able to speak English.

4. Back of the line.

5. Pay a reasonable fine.

I'm not a fan of the requirement they return to their country of origin, as that's just not realistic. If you make the pathway to citizenship too burdensome, then no one will utilize it and then there's no point in offering it.
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I am not a fan of any illegal immigration compromise. The only thing a compromise means is they give amnesty to the illegals, make us pay for their legals fees and ignore everything else. We got burned on a so-called immigration compromise before.
 
Psychoclown said:
I'm opposed to amnesty for the sake of amnesty. All that does is encourage more folks to come here illegally. However, if a pathway to citizenship was the compromise it took to pass some real anti-illegal immigration measures, then it would be worth it. Here's what I'd expect such a compromise to look like

1. Increased border patrols, possibly a fence if its determined to be effective and cost efficient.

2. Elimination of all government assistance for illegal immigration. No welfare, no food stamps, no public education. Emergency life saving medical care would be the one exception, and only because trying to verify citizenship in a life saving situation would create more problems than it would solve.

3. Local law enforcement empowered to arrest and detain illegal aliens they come into contact with. No more illegals with three DUIs still out on the road. If an illegal alien is arrested on a minor charge, he should be handed over to the proper authorities for immediate deportation. For major charges, they should have a trial, serve their time, and then be deported.

4. Harsh penalties on those who hire illegal immigrants. If we remove the incentive to hire illegals, we remove the incentive to come here.

On the amnesty side, here's what I'd be willing allow a pathway to citizenship under the following conditions.

1. Clean criminal record.

2. Legally employed.

3. Able to speak English.

4. Back of the line.

5. Pay a reasonable fine.

I'm not a fan of the requirement they return to their country of origin, as that's just not realistic. If you make the pathway to citizenship too burdensome, then no one will utilize it and then there's no point in offering it.
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i'd lke to add a #6: Streamline and quicken the immigration process so people are even less tempted to come/stay illegally.
 
talloulou said:
Well for starters we appear to be incapable of enforcing them.
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partly because we've chosen to focus on the illegals instead of the people who employ them. illegal immigration is declining right now, no jobs. that tells us what we need to do to at least staunch the flow.
 
The silenced majority said:
I'm just saying that Generation X-Box needs to get off their asses and work, so we don't need to import foreigners to do the seasonal work that their lazy asses should be doing.
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as long as we don't punish employers for hiring illegals, there's no reason for them to stop.
 
liblady said:
as long as we don't punish employers for hiring illegals, there's no reason for them to stop.
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I agree with that. Throw them in prison and use assets forfeiture laws to treat them no different than a drug dealer who profits from illegal activities or some other criminal who profits from illegal activities or use their funds for illegal activities. If those who hire illegals know that that punishment could equal a loss of property and other assets instead of a measly fine then they would be less likely to take the chance of hiring illegals.
 
jamesrage said:
I agree with that. Throw them in prison and use assets forfeiture laws to treat them no different than a drug dealer who profits from illegal activities or some other criminal who profits from illegal activities or use their funds for illegal activities. If those who hire illegals know that that punishment could equal a loss of property and other assets instead of a measly fine then they would be less likely to take the chance of hiring illegals.
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i'm for amnesty, btw. on a practical and fiscal level, we should let non criminals stay and begin a path to citizenship. we should also strengthen our borders and take a good look at our current immigration quotas.

i'm not so sure i would use such draconian measures against the employers. hefty fines is a good start.
 
Redress said:
I am not discussing ethics, I am discussing legalities. Entering the country illegally is a crime. There is a legal path to citizenship. I believe in rewarding those who adhere to our laws, and punish those who do not adhere to our laws. Your whole Jim Crow law thing is simply misdirection.
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You are correct.

Regardless of any ethical argument, the United States, as a sovereign state, has a right to decide who it will allow into the country, who it will allow to become citizens, the circumstances of that allowance, and the disabilities of non-citizens.

Now, someone -can- argue that the law is unethical, and that there is no moral imperative to follow an unethical law, but that argument, which must be supported by the person making it will be, at best, subjective -- and, in any event, does not legally invalidate the law.

You may think that how I exercise my right is unethical, but that does not negate said exercise.
 
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talloulou said:
This doesn't mean squat for someone like my sister in law. She was brought here as a teen. Her sister is legal, she is not. Her sister has a valid driver's license and social security card and she can not get one. Her sister has a decent job and she is forced to take jobs under the table on the cheap. Her family is here. Her mother, sister, nephews, aunt, etc. There is nothing in Mexico to send her back to. She has been here since she was 15! You would send her back?

Folks like her need amnesty. They're completely f-ck'd due to their parents choices.

She has an immigration lawyer who has been working with her on her case for over a year now. It's possible she may STILL be denied citizenship despite having been here since 15, despite being married to my brother, despite having a legal sister, legal nephews, a legal aunt, etc.

It's a tad ridiculous. And it's fallacious to insist folks like her mother should have just followed the law and migrated legally. Unless you are a highly skilled educated person who already has a job lined up in the states they really make it all but impossible for you to legally migrate here from Mexico and further south. Best to just come here illegally and have as many of your offspring born here as possible.

Look how hard they're making it for her! She has a husband for cripes sake who has shown he can support her. She is not on welfare and won't be. She works under the table only cause she can't currently do anything else. She'd rather not. She drives illegally 'cause she can't get a license. She is trying to sort it all out, trying to make it right, trying to correct a wrong her parents created, and they are giving her grief. It's b.s. really.
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If she is married to a US citizen she is a legal citizen, she effectively beat the system. She is one of the issues that should be dealt with on a case by case basis but everyone else needs to go. As for the Federal Government, not doing its job, there has to be some sort of clause in the Constitution that says the states have the authority to enforce a power that the Federal Government has failed to do.
 
No, not only should they not be given any form of amnesty, they should be denied citizenship, perhaps permanently. At the very least, they should go straight to the back of the line. Why in the world would we want to give citizenship to people who have already demonstrated a complete disregard for our most basic laws?
 
Cephus said:
No, not only should they not be given any form of amnesty, they should be denied citizenship, perhaps permanently. At the very least, they should go straight to the back of the line. Why in the world would we want to give citizenship to people who have already demonstrated a complete disregard for our most basic laws?
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The so called "line" is a joke when it comes to Mexicans and those further south. They are unwanted. It is all but impossible for a poor uneducated Mexican looking for work to get legal entrance into this country. For them, there really is no "line" to speak of.
 
Cephus said:
No, not only should they not be given any form of amnesty, they should be denied citizenship, perhaps permanently. At the very least, they should go straight to the back of the line. Why in the world would we want to give citizenship to people who have already demonstrated a complete disregard for our most basic laws?
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Hmmm...
Revise the immigrations law so that anyone that was here illegaly can NEVER be a citzen.

If the illegals were wrried about becoming citizens (and the liberals were't trying to extend them just about every right that citizend have), that might have some teeth.
 
chevydriver1123 said:
If she is married to a US citizen she is a legal citizen, she effectively beat the system. She is one of the issues that should be dealt with on a case by case basis but everyone else needs to go. As for the Federal Government, not doing its job, there has to be some sort of clause in the Constitution that says the states have the authority to enforce a power that the Federal Government has failed to do.
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No you're dead wrong. Since she has been living here illegally it's possible she may be sent back to Mexico and forbidden to apply for citizenship or even temporary entry to our country for 10 years - as punishment. Punishment for a decision her mother made for her.

Marrying my brother DOES NOT automatically give her citizenship. It doesn't even automatically give her a pass to be in the US.

As for "issues" that should be dealt with on a case by case basis my sister is not unique. Many of them have back stories that would make you think twice about telling them to "get." Many of them were brought over as young children and know next to nothing about Mexico - usually once they come here illegally they never go back for fear of not getting back in. So if you're brought here at age 2 it's unlikely you know anything at all of Mexico and it's highly illogical to deport such a person as an adult.

There are very few cases that would be "easy" unless they are caught shortly after coming here.

For most of them the families are entrenched in the US with many members born here.
 
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