View Poll Results: Should illegal aliens get amnesty

Voters
34. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, make them citizens with no extra requirements

    5 14.71%
  • Yes, but make them pay a form of reparations to earn citizenship

    4 11.76%
  • No, they are criminals

    22 64.71%
  • other/don't know

    3 8.82%
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Thread: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

  1. #31
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Of course there are reasons. Unemployment will be a perpetual element of capitalism because it's needed as a disciplinary stick to coerce laborers into not shirking inside the workplace. And the U.S. in particular has a disproportionately high demand for unskilled labor. I'd certainly favor examining these fundamental problems in our economic structure before focusing on immigration, but too many have been deluded by propaganda to consider these issues.
    Yes, and when your ideology is one that demands that the bottom level of the social structure is necessarily "oppressed", the fact that the far from desperate lifestyle so many of the nation's "poor" enjoy creates quite a dilemma for you.

    Therefore one must always seek ways to import poverty in order to create angst among a population that is ignorant to our economic system and the value of their labor. And in doing so, one also ignores the fact that this "imported poverty" is risking life & limb to come here only to put their feet on the lowest rung of our capitalist ladder because their opportunities at home are not as good.

  2. #32
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Good for you. So why don't you support other people who are willing to work just as hard as you did for the same wage? Why do you instead side with the spoiled kids of "Generation X-Box," as you described them, very few of whom are willing to perform such menial work for such low wages?
    I'm just saying that Generation X-Box needs to get off their asses and work, so we don't need to import foreigners to do the seasonal work that their lazy asses should be doing.

  3. #33
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You have not made a case there is anything wrong with the law. I certainly do not believe there is anything wrong with immigration laws.
    Actually, I've said that focus on immigration laws, at the very least, diverts attention from the more relevant issues of trade liberalization and a disproportionately high demand for unskilled labor in the U.S. However, there are also additional economic costs associated with enforcement of immigration laws that are ultimately irrational. Aside from that, here's something I wrote about a year ago on the unethical nature of immigration restrictions:

    The utilitarian philosopher Peter Singer has constructed an interesting analogy for the purpose of illustrating the costs and benefits of accepting immigrants into another country. His scenario involves a nuclear fallout in the Middle East that severely endangers and sickens those exposed to it. Only those who are in fallout shelters can expect to live in a reasonably healthy manner. Those who were farsighted enough to predict the nuclear conflagration in the Middle East, having observed previous international conflicts, have purchased accommodations in the fallout shelters. Each shelter can accommodate about 10,000 people for 20 years, and have elaborate and sophisticated security systems that allow them to admit whosoever they choose and prevent others from entering. Now suppose that word came that the effects of the nuclear fallout would not last as long as was initially anticipated, and will instead last from eight to ten years. Above-ground, a mass of about 10,000 people have gathered pleading to be allowed inside a certain shelter. The 10,000 could be accommodated since the shelter for the 8 to 10 years since the supplies were initially supposed to last for 20 years, and only half would be used should the original 10,000 be the only inhabitants. However, it should be noted that the shelter was designed to function as a luxury retreat when not used for a real emergency, and the current inhabitants are making full use of the tennis courts and swimming pools contained therein. If the 10,000 outsiders were to be permitted inside, the tennis courts and the swimming pools could no longer be used for their intended purpose, as they would instead function as accommodations for the outsiders. However, if the 10,000 are not permitted to enter, they will live a wretched existence above-ground. Many will starve to death, or suffer from excruciating disease and eventually wither away. Would you hold that the 10,000 ought to be permitted inside the shelter, even though they have no "property rights" claim to the shelter? I would say so. It is morally unacceptable to deny the 10,000 admittance to the shelter, because of the consideration of marginal utility that must be taken into account. Permitting the outsiders to enter the shelter would incur a far lesser burden of suffering, in terms of duration and intensity, upon the current inhabitants, than would be incurred on the outsiders were they forced to remain above-ground.

    If you were to permit the entry of the above-ground victims, I would question why or how one can have a profoundly different opinion on the issue of immigration, especially considering that the analogy represents a worst-case scenario for immigrants. In the analogy, the outsider group intended to represent foreigners was partially responsible for their own plight because they did not invest wisely. In American society, Mexican immigrants (the majority group), are not directly responsible for their plight in the same manner. Quite the opposite, in fact. The trade treaty that forced them to relocate because of the destabilization of the Mexican economy, (the North American Free Trade Agreement), was passed against their will. It was the callous decisions made by governmental authorities, including American governmental authorities, that forced them to relocate. Moreover, we are assuming that the outsiders will cause at least some degree of suffering to the shelter inhabitants, even if the marginal utility of their suffering pales when compared to that of the outsiders if forced to remain above-ground. As I have attempted to demonstrate with the statistics that I have cited in the other thread that I started in this forum, the very opposite is arguably true. The immigrants may bring increased happiness rather than increased suffering. We also held that the immigrants had no legitimate "property right" whatsoever to the underground shelter. This is untrue in the case of Mexican immigrants descended from indigenous tribes. They have been robbed of their right to land inheritance by past generations. In the same vein, if Jim's grandfather were to steal something from John's grandfather and pass it down to Jim, the fact that Jim had not personally stolen it would not change the fact that the possession should righfully belong to John. This is true for Mexican immigrants both in the sense that their land was stolen from them in the course of European conquest, and in the course of broken promises of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

    Hence, while considering these additional factors, the denial of the right to emigrate seems especially unjust and brutal, an addition of insult to injury, and it is difficult to conceptualize how any morally just person could oppose it.
    I'm still broadly in favor of that today, though I'd note that I should have written "mestizo" instead of Mexican, as I was laxer about using accurate terminology back then.

  4. #34
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by The silenced majority View Post
    Yes, and when your ideology is one that demands that the bottom level of the social structure is necessarily "oppressed", the fact that the far from desperate lifestyle so many of the nation's "poor" enjoy creates quite a dilemma for you.

    Therefore one must always seek ways to import poverty in order to create angst among a population that is ignorant to our economic system and the value of their labor. And in doing so, one also ignores the fact that this "imported poverty" is risking life & limb to come here only to put their feet on the lowest rung of our capitalist ladder because their opportunities at home are not as good.
    Actually, the issue of inequitable wage differentials between the U.S. and Mexico is at the very thrust of all of my points in this thread. Do try to adjust your bifocals, dear chap.

  5. #35
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Oh, by the way, I hereby challenge anyone who voted for the "No, they are criminals" option to a True Debate if and when they can be set up again.

  6. #36
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by The silenced majority View Post
    I'm just saying that Generation X-Box needs to get off their asses and work, so we don't need to import foreigners to do the seasonal work that their lazy asses should be doing.
    If they are willing to do the same thing you did, there is nothing stopping them from competing with the migrant workers for those jobs.
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  7. #37
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Actually, the issue of inequitable wage differentials between the U.S. and Mexico is at the very thrust of all of my points in this thread. Do try to adjust your bifocals, dear chap.
    In Mexico the top 30% of income earners account for 55% of income, while in the US the top 25% accounts for 67.15% of income. Why would Mexicans flee the relative workers paradise they have down there to enter in to a much more brutal, unfair Capitalist system here?

  8. #38
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If they are willing to do the same thing you did, there is nothing stopping them from competing with the migrant workers for those jobs.
    Immigration law is the difference between them & me.

  9. #39
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    I voted for the first option. It's incredibly what a difference having one in your family makes on your whole outlook.

  10. #40
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You have not made a case there is anything wrong with the law. I certainly do not believe there is anything wrong with immigration laws.
    Well for starters we appear to be incapable of enforcing them.

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