View Poll Results: Should illegal aliens get amnesty

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  • Yes, make them citizens with no extra requirements

    5 14.71%
  • Yes, but make them pay a form of reparations to earn citizenship

    4 11.76%
  • No, they are criminals

    22 64.71%
  • other/don't know

    3 8.82%
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Thread: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

  1. #11
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    OK, then let's use a hypothetical example instead of an historical example: Suppose that everyone in Congress gets drunk one night and passes a law making it a crime for any non-citizen to wear T-shirts with silly phrases on them. When there are protests, some people say that the law should not be changed because it rewards lawbreakers.

    Do you see any problem with this argument? It offers no rational explanation for why such a thing should be a crime in the first place.
    That is not the argument being used though. Let me try and make it more close to what is the point.

    Suppose the t-shirt law gets passed as you suggest. Suppose further that to join the military, you cannot have a conviction. If you have a conviction for the stupid T-shirt law, it is appropriate to not allow you to join the military.

    The fact that the law that illegal immigrants are breaking is immigration law is irrelevant. It's the fact that they choose to break a law. If you enter the country legally, and start on the immigration process legally, and then mug some one, you should also be deported and not allowed to finish your immigration process.

    Edit: The reason it is a crime in the first place is that there are processes to enter the country, and requirements for citizenship/work visas and all that. An illegal ignores those processes.
    Last edited by Redress; 10-01-09 at 12:09 AM.

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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Yes, but they where already citizens, so that could not be denied them.
    In terms of clearly defined legal policy, they were designated into a category of second-class citizens. You're again improperly conflating legal and ethical standards, at any rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    They where criminals, and prosecuting them under the laws was appropriate, as was changing those laws.
    Prosecution was hardly ethically appropriate, whatever the legal standards of the day might have been.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Saying that people used civil disobedience so we should not have passed civil rights legislation...well, if that is your contention, that is a highly inaccurate analogy.
    Not every violation of Jim Crow laws was an act of deliberate civil disobedience; more often than not, there was simply a refusal to adhere to segregationist policy because it unduly burdened the targets of it. If a black man went into the white bathroom because the toilet paper in the colored bathroom chafed his ass, that would hardly be a serious political protest, but neither would the unethical nature of racially discriminatory public policy be diluted. That illegal immigrants aren't engaging in formal political protest when they violate immigration laws hardly grants those laws ethical legitimacy either.

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    It is too easy to attain a social sec # illegitimately and simply write that in on an I-9 and fulfill the requirements to snow an employer into hiring illegals.
    The reason for the provision of false social security numbers is because of restrictions on entry into the formal labor market without them, as well as on acquisition of sufficient human capital to obtain skilled jobs because of restrictions on school attendance. If illegal immigration were not criminalized, this problem would of course be minimal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Yes there is an ethical basis for such restrictions. We as a country are perfectly allowed to choose whether to allow immigration and how much to allow, whatever is in our best interest. It is unethical of people to not respect the laws of the land they want to live in.
    That's also not an actual ethical claim, and there is no legitimately unethical aspect of violation of laws that are themselves unethical. An ethical claim would be "illegal immigrants kill, rape, and rob people at disproportionately high rates when they enter the U.S., and should thus be disallowed from entering." There's of course no basis for that specific claim, but you should get the meaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Illegal immigrants are criminals by definition. There is believed to be > 10 million in this country. Sounds widespread to me.
    There's no legitimate basis for ethical comparison between murder, rape, and robbery and illegal entry into a country.

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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The reason it is a crime in the first place is that there are processes to enter the country, and requirements for citizenship/work visas and all that. An illegal ignores those processes.
    That's also not an argument or ethical claim; that's statement of an existing legal standard as though it's somehow self-validating. It's akin to stating that the reason that violation of racially discriminatory legal policies is illegal is because there is segregation and legal division between whites and coloreds and all that. A violator ignores those laws.

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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    There's no legitimate basis for ethical comparison between murder, rape, and robbery and illegal entry into a country.
    This is, at it's most basic, the heart of the issue I think. To me there is a definite comparison. They are all illegal acts.

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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    This is, at it's most basic, the heart of the issue I think. To me there is a definite comparison. They are all illegal acts.
    Illegality is not a basis for ethical comparison, unless you believe that violation of Jim Crow laws is morally equivalent to murder, as mentioned.

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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Should illegal aliens be offered Amnesty, semi-amnesty(paying fines or working for forgiveness), or not allowed amnesty.

    This question is a redirect from here, where we have gotten way off topic and onto this: http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...an-issues.html
    poll is up.
    No amnesty period.If you reward illegal immigration you encourage more of it, just look at the Reagan Amnesty.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Illegality is not a basis for ethical comparison, unless you believe that violation of Jim Crow laws is morally equivalent to murder, as mentioned.
    I am not discussing ethics, I am discussing legalities. Entering the country illegally is a crime. There is a legal path to citizenship. I believe in rewarding those who adhere to our laws, and punish those who do not adhere to our laws. Your whole Jim Crow law thing is simply misdirection.

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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    We have no reason at all to import a lower-class of seasonal workers from other countries while Generation X-Box has the highest unemployment rate in history for young people.

  9. #19
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by The silenced majority View Post
    We have no reason at all to import a lower-class of seasonal workers from other countries while Generation X-Box has the highest unemployment rate in history for young people.
    I doubt there are many Generation X-Boxers who are willing to pick strawberries in the sweltering sun for a couple dollars an hour.
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    No amnesty period. If you reward illegal immigration you encourage it, just look at the Reagan Amnesty.
    Immigration both legal and illegal is primarily caused by the displacement of agricultural laborers and those uprooted by that displacement in Mexico, which was itself caused by the expansion of trade liberalization. Focus on immigrants themselves is a mere red herring designed to function as a distraction from the reality that the wealthy financiers that have invested in this liberalization effort are far more responsible for illegal immigration than corn farmers are. This in turn leads to ignorance of the facts that there are unjustly inequitable wage differentials between the U.S. and Mexico and that there is a disproportionately high demand for unskilled labor in the U.S., and the manipulation of public policy according to the interests of the financial class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I am not discussing ethics, I am discussing legalities. Entering the country illegally is a crime. There is a legal path to citizenship. I believe in rewarding those who adhere to our laws, and punish those who do not adhere to our laws. Your whole Jim Crow law thing is simply misdirection.
    You haven't made an argument yet; you've simply been repeating statements rather than claims. Simply droning that illegal entry is against the law over and over again fails to actually examine any logical or ethical basis behind the construction of that law, and accordingly, whether it's the most rational public policy to maintain. I'd say that there are fairly compelling reasons why it is not.

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